San Jacinto Archeological Discoveries

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Re: Texas Revolution ended here, San Jacinto find

Postby zapadore on Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:20 pm

Fred and QM....excellent points!...hell I'm embarassed to admit at more than one Texas Rev and ACW event we stacked arms - with bayonets fixed - QM brings up something that NO ONE knows for certain,...were their arms stacked or not?????....its all a matter of speculation and conjecture based on what we know now......
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Re: Texas Revolution ended here, San Jacinto find

Postby quincey morris on Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:28 pm

zapadore wrote:Fred and QM....excellent points!...hell I'm embarassed to admit at more than one Texas Rev and ACW event we stacked arms - with bayonets fixed - QM brings up something that NO ONE knows for certain,...were their arms stacked or not?????....its all a matter of speculation and conjecture based on what we know now......


Well, the translation of Delgado does make two references to muskets being stacked. One of these is the reinforcements Cos brought in...and the other seems to be a general observation...
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Re: Texas Revolution ended here, San Jacinto find

Postby zapadore on Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:56 pm

quite right....but the units who arrived the day before or simply Cos' men? Thanks for the clarification...
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Re: Texas Revolution ended here, San Jacinto find

Postby quincey morris on Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:34 pm

Cos' men that day. The general reference is that the Mexican line (front) was comprised of musket stacks.
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Re: Texas Revolution ended here, San Jacinto find

Postby Fred on Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:30 pm

quincey morris wrote:
Fred wrote:Interesting question...and it made me remember something...I don't believe that a musket, being without a Stacking Swivel, could've been stacked withouot it's bayonet, which was used to facilitate just that.


That is why I brought this up (I just spent the weekend going over some 1840-1860 drill, a two systems of stacking arms, all of which involve bayonets). I would feel that the Mexican muskets in stacks at San Jac would be with fixed bayonets.

By the way Fred-your rifle is a very, very nice period piece. It is quite a find.

Image
Thanks! It's got a little history behind it. An old man gave it to me twenty five years ago. I let it get away from me once, but I was able
to buy it back and Davy kept on me about documenting it's history, which I finaly was able to peice together. I promissed Davy and John
Hinnant that they can both fight over it to see who gets it if anything ever happens to me. They just have to come get it from my house
...after getting past the dogs. ;)
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Re: Texas Revolution ended here, San Jacinto find

Postby Davy on Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:29 am

Itsa biggun Davy and its firin from over hyar! :o I will kick John in the knee, and whilst heza hoppin on one foot, I will snatch it!
:shock: :lol: Darn sure cain't outgun the varmit cuz heza mitey willin boy! :oops: :D

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Re: Texas Revolution ended here, San Jacinto find

Postby NefariousNed on Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:33 am

Check out the San Antonio Living History Association's thread for more photos of the San Jac battlefield underwater!

CLICK HERE: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=111

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Re: Texas Revolution ended here, San Jacinto find

Postby zapadore on Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:38 am

Nefarious wrote:Check out the San Antonio Living History Association's thread for more photos of the San Jac battlefield underwater!

CLICK HERE: http://johnwayne-thealamo.com/forum/vie ... f=13&t=111

JALamo wrote:Image


Ned,....just came across Jerry's pics on another thread...bad bad weather......in years past we always placed the camp along the park road on the high ground in the rear of the photo,..there's a nice stand of pines there...and an open area for the battle...Texians would always camp across the small Hwy 1836 which ran thorugh the park, close to the bayou,.... gave'em time to advance across the plain and form up before attacking.......like I said some one didn't take weather or the lay of the land in consideration when selecting this site!...Major league boo boo!...Hope no one lost valuable kit...
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Re: Texas Revolution ended here, San Jacinto find

Postby Fred on Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:44 pm

Davy wrote:Itsa biggun Davy and its firin from over hyar! :o I will kick John in the knee, and whilst heza hoppin on one foot, I will snatch it!
:shock: :lol: Darn sure cain't outgun the varmit cuz heza mitey willin boy! :oops: :D

Davy

Ha! that's the way Davy! :D It'd be a four day fight for sure ifn you let your guard down! I remember him saying "Davy just better not get between me and the rifle!...That's all I gotta say! He admitted that you've got the advantage over him beccause you live closer to me and will no doubt be the one to tell him of my Deeemize...after you've secured the rifle for Texas and posterity. :lol:
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Re: Texas Revolution ended here, San Jacinto find

Postby quincey morris on Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:44 pm

zapadore wrote:
Nefarious wrote:Check out the San Antonio Living History Association's thread for more photos of the San Jac battlefield underwater!

CLICK HERE: http://johnwayne-thealamo.com/forum/vie ... f=13&t=111

JALamo wrote:Image


Ned,....just came across Jerry's pics on another thread...bad bad weather......in years past we always placed the camp along the park road on the high ground in the rear of the photo,..there's a nice stand of pines there...and an open area for the battle...Texians would always camp across the small Hwy 1836 which ran thorugh the park, close to the bayou,.... gave'em time to advance across the plain and form up before attacking.......like I said some one didn't take weather or the lay of the land in consideration when selecting this site!...Major league boo boo!...Hope no one lost valuable kit...

Gee, I though Peggy's Lake was on the otherside of the monument :D :roll: :D
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Re: Texas Revolution ended here, San Jacinto find

Postby quincey morris on Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:40 am

Cole_blooded wrote:This is a piece left from yesterday`s article I posted.

TED COLE....aka....Cole_blooded 8-)

Image
Sandy Rogers, Collections Registrar at the Sam Houston Memorial Museum, holds an engraved Mexican cross belt piece recently recovered
from the site of the Battle of San Jacinto. The piece is part of a new exhibit at the museum featuring five items recovered from that site
during a 2004 survey.


Just a small point: if you look at the illustration the museum is using for a soldado, it appears not to be showing the 1836 period, but rather 1839-47. That looks like part of the plate done by Younghusband for Chartrand's Osprey book and in particular the segt of the 4th Light Infantry (plate g).
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Re: Texas Revolution ended here, San Jacinto find

Postby zapadore on Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:15 pm

quincey morris wrote:Just a small point: if you look at the illustration the museum is using for a soldado, it appears not to be showing the 1836 period, but rather 1839-47. That looks like part of the plate done by Younghusband for Chartrand's Osprey book and in particular the segt of the 4th Light Infantry (plate g).


How dare you question the museum!!!!!....Non believer!!!!! Heretic!!!!!....For that QM you will go to mass,....complete a dozen rosaries and then watch 'The Last Command'....Twice!...& without your supper young man!...Relax folks,....just screwin with'em! LOL!
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Rediscovering history...San Jacinto Battlefield

Postby Cole_blooded on Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:23 am

This article "Rediscovering History" is the best piece written and photographed so far of the recent finds at the San Jacinto battle grounds! ;) It is written by Stephen L. Moore and the photography by Brian McKenzie of which both are superb here!

Moore and McKenzie are both part of the team as well. The pictures are great and there is a big one of all affiliates of the search team! Photos of various objects found and several of reenactors and some others. It took me the longest time to find this and was worth it!

TED COLE....aka....Cole_blooded 8-)

http://www.garrett.com/hobby/san_jac_feature_story.pdf
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Re: Rediscovering history...San Jacinto Battlefield

Postby Davy on Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:30 am

Cool stuff Ted :lol: I love to read about new discoveries in this stuff!

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Re: Rediscovering history...San Jacinto Battlefield

Postby Seguin on Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:22 am

Great find, Ted! Interesting stuff, for sure. Thanks...
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Re: Rediscovering history...San Jacinto Battlefield

Postby quincey morris on Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:34 am

Thanks for posting!
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Re: San Jacinto Archeological Discoveries

Postby zapadore on Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:16 pm

Great article!
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Re: San Jacinto Archeological Discoveries

Postby NefariousNed on Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:22 pm

http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/local/ ... _army.html

Seminar in Houston to show human side of Mexican army
By Alan Turner, Houston Chronicle, April 17, 2010

It’s a story every Texas schoolchild knows well. Late on the afternoon of April 21, 1836,
Gen. Sam Houston ordered a surprise attack on the slumbering army of Mexican Gen.
Antonio López de Santa Anna, encamped near Buffalo Bayou in eastern Harris County.
Though vastly outmanned, Houston’s rag-tag army — energized by the memory of
carnage at the Alamo and Goliad — delivered a devastating blow. Losing only nine troops,
Houston’s men killed about 630 Mexicans and captured more than 700.

The Texans went on to found a new republic and write history. And the dead Mexicans?
Disregarded by Santa Anna and Texans alike, they were left on the battlefield to rot.

The stories of six of Santa Anna’s fallen soldiers — deduced from recent scientific studies
of their skulls — will be spotlighted today as Friends of the San Jacinto Battleground holds
its 2010 San Jacinto symposium at the University of Houston’s Hilton Hotel.

Featured will be Doug Owsley, head of the anthropology division at the Smithsonian
Institution’s National Museum of Natural History, who led a team of scientists in
determining the dead soldiers’ approximate age, apparent cause of death, ethnicity and
medical history.

Other speakers will address the sex lives of Texas’ philandering founders, the details of
Alamo defender Davy Crockett’s death, the impact of slavery on revolutionary Texas and
bird painter and naturalist John James Audubon’s 1837 visit to Houston and Galveston.

Audubon collected four of the skulls studied by Owsley and his team. The Audubon skulls
and two others from the battlefield ended up in the crania collection of the University of
Pennsylvania, where, in essence, they lay forgotten for more than 170 years.

The skulls’ existence recently was rediscovered when Houston-born Dallas lawyer Jeffrey
Dunn, co-founder of the battleground association and former chairman of the state’s San
Jacinto Historical Advisory Board, happened upon a 19th-century catalog of the collection’s
holdings. The battleground group commissioned the Owsley study.
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Re: San Jacinto Archeological Discoveries

Postby Seguin on Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:47 pm

Other speakers will address the sex lives of Texas’ philandering founders,...


I´ll bet that subject will draw a crowd! :D
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Re: San Jacinto Archeological Discoveries

Postby Davy on Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:00 pm

Seguin wrote:
Other speakers will address the sex lives of Texas’ philandering founders,...


I´ll bet that subject will draw a crowd! :D


I reckon they will put their "heads" together and come up with something interesting at least! :o :lol:
They should put those poor souls to rest, and give them the honor that all dead deserve.
Sorry ... I am not one to desecrate graves. :x Artifacts are one thing ... bodies another ... :cry:

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Re: San Jacinto Archeological Discoveries

Postby Fred on Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:01 pm

Well, for starters "those poor souls" ARE at rest. they left their bones behind. also, nobody is desecrating a grave. the bones were, in all probability, strewn over the ground like most bodies left on the surface become, by animals that drag the various parts off to eat them. Most of the time, only the skulls are eventually found as that is the only sizable part not easily drug off by coons, possums, foxes, etc. Yes we all know of dogs, coyotes, bears etc carrying off heads. That's another reason that whatever is left is often in pieces and usually buried in rodent homes, cache's, etc. The scientific study of human osteology isn't "desecrating graves or defiling the dead". If someone digs up a human grave and takes the skull away to their home and burns a candle on it during their clubhouse meetings, THAT is desecration and grave robbing. Studying the damage imflicted on human bodies in a battle is paramont to understanding precisely what went on and can give detailed information that is historicaly revealing. I've read the reports of what the bones of Mexican soldiers had to tell that were revealed in the excavations of construction activity on the battleground of a Mexican American War site. It was extremely revealing and of historical interest. The average age of the Mexican soldiers was revealed (mid teens up to 30's), as well as their physical condition going into battle (all were malnurished and suffered dental problems as well as broken bones from earlier injuries), What type of battle trauma was suffered by most of them (cannister), What they were wearing during the battle (these bodies were never recovered by burial parties), What areas of Mexico they originated from (the teeth contained definitive mineral traces that built up like tree rings over time from the water consumed by them that could be isolated and traced to specific locations). All of this is of utmost historical importance. This extremely accurate forensic information can now be obtained from the bones that remain and are ocassionaly revealed. These soldiers had no way of leaving a record of who they were or where they came from or of speaking of their fate and sufferring. What remains of their bodies, (not much) is reverently cared for and studied to gather from them as much as possible any information that they can give us about who the men and women were. I've participated in such retrievals, excavations, recoveries and the laboratory studies that were used to gather detailed information from them. Today, after the studies are completed, whether the bones are discovered on a long forgotten shelf in a storage facility or on the ground after eroding out during a storm or newly excavated during construction activity, the skeletal material is allways handed over to a parish or church and reburied in wooden boxes in a Christian cemetery. Even native American bones are in turn handed over to a native american committee for burial in a secret place that only they know the location of after a respectful ceremony by them that includes offerings of food placed on the boxes and buried with them. Desecration of the graves of the dead? I don't believe that statement is anything close to the truth Davy.
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Re: San Jacinto Archeological Discoveries

Postby Davy on Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:10 pm

Fred wrote:Well, for starters "those poor souls" ARE at rest. they left their bones behind. also, nobody is desecrating a grave. the bones were, in all probability, strewn over the ground like most bodies left on the surface become, by animals that drag the various parts off to eat them. Most of the time, only the skulls are eventually found as that is the only sizable part not easily drug off by coons, possums, foxes, etc. Yes we all know of dogs, coyotes, bears etc carrying off heads. That's another reason that whatever is left is often in pieces and usually buried in rodent homes, cache's, etc. The scientific study of human osteology isn't "desecrating graves or defiling the dead". If someone digs up a human grave and takes the skull away to their home and burns a candle on it during their clubhouse meetings, THAT is desecration and grave robbing. Studying the damage imflicted on human bodies in a battle is paramont to understanding precisely what went on and can give detailed information that is historicaly revealing. I've read the reports of what the bones of Mexican soldiers had to tell that were revealed in the excavations of construction activity on the battleground of a Mexican American War site. It was extremely revealing and of historical interest. The average age of the Mexican soldiers was revealed (mid teens up to 30's), as well as their physical condition going into battle (all were malnurished and suffered dental problems as well as broken bones from earlier injuries), What type of battle trauma was suffered by most of them (cannister), What they were wearing during the battle (these bodies were never recovered by burial parties), What areas of Mexico they originated from (the teeth contained definitive mineral traces that built up like tree rings over time from the water consumed by them that could be isolated and traced to specific locations). All of this is of utmost historical importance. This extremely accurate forensic information can now be obtained from the bones that remain and are ocassionaly revealed. These soldiers had no way of leaving a record of who they were or where they came from or of speaking of their fate and sufferring. What remains of their bodies, (not much) is reverently cared for and studied to gather from them as much as possible any information that they can give us about who the men and women were. I've participated in such retrievals, excavations, recoveries and the laboratory studies that were used to gather detailed information from them. Today, after the studies are completed, whether the bones are discovered on a long forgotten shelf in a storage facility or on the ground after eroding out during a storm or newly excavated during construction activity, the skeletal material is allways handed over to a parish or church and reburied in wooden boxes in a Christian cemetery. Even native American bones are in turn handed over to a native american committee for burial in a secret place that only they know the location of after a respectful ceremony by them that includes offerings of food placed on the boxes and buried with them. Desecration of the graves of the dead? I don't believe that statement is anything close to the truth Davy.


Your STILL a wanker Fred! :o :lol: Who's kiddin who though :( ... graves are desecrated all over the world these days brother and you well know it! :roll: I am all for informed archeology ... but it does have its limits and it does NOT encase every circumstance someone wants to "study" some bones! What about grave robbers for instance? :D

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Re: San Jacinto Archeological Discoveries

Postby Fred on Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:14 pm

Yep, I'm a Wanker allright...whatever THAT is. ;) Graverobbing isn't part of this story though Davy. The article is specificly about gathering scientific information from these remains that have recently been discovered or rediscovered. THAT is what I'm refering to also. Nothing else, not amateur collecting, looting or pot hunting. I guess it's time to bring up a thing that's bothered me for awhile. Hollywood allways introduces archaeology with terms such as Tomb Raiding, Tomb Raiders, Treasure, Treasure Seeker's etc. This has most certainly put a negative spin onto the science of archaeology. In reputable archaeological circles, terms such as "treasure" are NEVER used or heard. That is a debasing term that has no place in the science of archaeology. However, like the missuse of words like Decimate (actually meaning one out of every ten), Irregardless (there is no such word), and Quintessential instead of saying "most essential" ( quintessence is refering to the five essences or elements, sometimes just to the 5th essence or "ether", the words keep being used within laymen conversations of subjectmatter and have aquired a life of their own that isn't justified. OK, I'm off to the "Wanker" symposium now...
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Re: San Jacinto Archeological Discoveries

Postby quincey morris on Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:25 pm

The 1967 uncovery of the Mexican Army dead from the 1846 battle of Resaca de la Palma, occured in part, because of a subdivision being put in the Brownsville area. More information on this can be found at http://www.nps.gov/history/history/onli ... n/appb.htm

In the 1990's, there was some discussion of the idea of returning the dead to Mexican authorities. It went nowhere, particularly because the Mexican Governement was not that interested. As far as I know, the remains are still in boxes up in Austin,
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Re: San Jacinto Archeological Discoveries

Postby Davy on Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:30 pm

Its all bunkem n bosh ... lies loose mouthed folk tell around I tellyas! :( Some Indio told some vaquero ... :lol:

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Re: San Jacinto Archeological Discoveries

Postby Fred on Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:34 pm

quincey morris wrote:
In the 1990's, there was some discussion of the idea of returning the dead to Mexican authorities. It went now where, particularly because the Mexican Governement was not that interested. As far as I know, the remains are still in boxes up in Austin,


I submet that the retaining of these remains is done within accordance of the law and there is no abuse or missuse of the material gathered pending further studies and eventual reburial once Mexican authorities come forward with a request to have the remains turned over to them for reinternment.
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Re: San Jacinto Archeological Discoveries

Postby quincey morris on Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:33 pm

Fred wrote:
quincey morris wrote:
In the 1990's, there was some discussion of the idea of returning the dead to Mexican authorities. It went now where, particularly because the Mexican Governement was not that interested. As far as I know, the remains are still in boxes up in Austin,


I submet that the retaining of these remains is done within accordance of the law and there is no abuse or missuse of the material gathered pending further studies and eventual reburial once Mexican authorities come forward with a request to have the remains turned over to them for reinternment.


That is true-if there are no family members(hard to determind) and no interest in on the part of the Mexican Government, then the remains are being stored and care for.

The Witte, I believe is also storing and caring for the remains of a participant from the 1813 period who may or may not be Colonel Miguel Menchaca These were uncovered during road construction in 1968.
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Re: San Jacinto Archeological Discoveries

Postby John L. Hinnant on Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:05 am

Greetings All,

On Sunday, December 14, 2014, Sara and I attended the Texas Connection to the American Revolution Association (TACARA) Christmas Luncheon. The guest speaker was Ms. Jan Wagner fron the Harris County Historical Society (Houston) Her subject was the recent archeological dig at San Jacinto.

The archeological dig produced a mountain of evidence that the actual battle took place a mile South of the currently desiginated area. The arctifacts do not lie. Coupled with the fact that very few artifacts have been found at the current desiginated battlefield location, there can be little doubt that Ms. Wagner and her team have discovered the true site of the San Jacinto battlefield.

A very fascinating artifact was the discovery of a pocket watch found in the middle of an area with identified Mexican Army artifacts. The pocket watch was from an 1830-1850 time period, made by a watch company in Connecticut. When cleaned, the back of the watch revealed the name of the Connecticut watch company. That watch company went out of business around 1890

What is interesting is that the watch company was located 36 miles from the family home of Gordon C. Jennings, the oldest Alamo Defender, the only defender from Connecticut. And of course the question is, could this watch have been taken off of the body of Jennings ? We will never know, but it is an interesting thought. We do know that after the battle, the possessions of the defenders were actioned off.

A report will be written about this dig and what it yield. But I also learned from Ms. Wagner that the State of Texas never publishes the archeological reports, and obtaining a copy might be difficult.

My Regards and Respects to All, and to All, a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year,

John L. Hinnant
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Re: San Jacinto Archeological Discoveries

Postby Fred on Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:09 am

Thanks John!
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Re: San Jacinto Archeological Discoveries

Postby Seguin on Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:21 am

The archeological dig produced a mountain of evidence that the actual battle took place a mile South of the currently desiginated area. The arctifacts do not lie. Coupled with the fact that very few artifacts have been found at the current desiginated battlefield location, there can be little doubt that Ms. Wagner and her team have discovered the true site of the San Jacinto battlefield.


That´s quite a sensation!

A report will be written about this dig and what it yield. But I also learned from Ms. Wagner that the State of Texas never publishes the archeological reports, and obtaining a copy might be difficult.


Right, why let the public read the report? :roll: :o :shock:
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Re: San Jacinto Archeological Discoveries

Postby cc nolen on Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:58 pm

HAPPY SAN JACINTO DAY! :D Payback was a MF!!! ;)
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