Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby NefariousNed on Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:42 pm

Here's a few photos of Lincoln, NM from that grab bag of photos from 1966 I recently acquired. Lincoln County was the location of the
so called "Lincoln County War" of 1878 fought between the McSween/Tunstall/Chisum faction and the organized crime boss Lawrence
Murphy over distribution of dry goods in the county. After the murder of Tunstull by Murpy crony Sheriff Willam Brady's deputies,
William "Billy The Kid" Bonney and other of Tunstall's ranch hands formed "The Regulators" to arrest those responsible. They ended up
killing most of them in shootouts and became branded as outlaws. The war came to a climax in the town of Lincoln when the Regulators
were holed up in the Tunstall store by Murphy men and some US cavalry troopers. Tunstull's partner McSween was killed in the battle,
while Bonney and several other Regulators managed to escape, turning thereafter to a life of crime, primarily cattle rustling. Billy the Kid
met his end at the hands of his one-time friend Pat Garrett in Fort Sumner, NM, though some say he escaped and took up the name of
Brushy Bill Roberts, living until 1949.
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby NefariousNed on Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:43 pm

Image
The Tunstall store.
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby NefariousNed on Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:44 pm

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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby NefariousNed on Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:45 pm

Image
Interior of Lincoln Post Office, 1966.
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby NefariousNed on Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:46 pm

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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby NefariousNed on Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:47 pm

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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby NefariousNed on Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:53 pm

Image
Lincoln County Courthouse where Billy the Kid, awaiting trial, escaped, killing deputy Bob Olinger.
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby JoeFDNY146 on Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:23 pm

Most already know this but for those that don't, Billy the Kid has been
portrayed as being left handed, Hollywood went as far as to name a
movie the Left Handed Gun, in reality he was right handed. The mixup
comes from the only known photo of him on a tin type being published
in reverse, so the gunbelt he is wearing in the photo appears to be on
HIS left side, but if you look at the Winchester rifle he's holding the
ejection port on the rifle (where the spent cartridges eject from the
rifle) is on the RIFLES left side, Winchester never produced a lever action
rifle with a left side ejection port, so the tin type must be reversed for
the rifle to appear that way.As its been said before "of interest" Joe

The top photo was the original released,
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby TexianAtHeartII on Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:34 am

You know, Billy kind of reminds me of a younger Kevin Costner from his role in Silverado.
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby Seguin on Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:05 am

NefariousNed wrote:Image
Interior of Lincoln Post Office, 1966.


It looks a bit "old" for a 1966 post office/store. Nice old pics you´ve gotten hold of, Ned!
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby NefariousNed on Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:41 pm

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/ ... ntent=2040

$2 Photo Found At Junk Store Has Billy The Kid In It, Could Be Worth $5M
Breaking News from NPR, San Antonio
October 15, 2015 5:58 PM ET
Brakkton Booker

It's not every day you can plop down two bucks and walk away with some "junk" that is worth a fortune. But that's what happened when a
collector purchased an old-timey photo from a Fresno, Calif., antiques shop.

It turns out, the infamous outlaw Billy the Kid is in the photo, apparently taking part in a leisurely game of croquet.

The image could be worth up to $5 million.
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Kagin's Inc., a numismatics firm, announced it had authenticated the photo earlier this month. The 4-inch-by-5-inch tintype shows Billy the
Kid in the summer of 1878. It may have been taken at a wedding, and he is alongside several members of his gang, The Regulators,
according to the firm.
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In a statement, Kagin's senior numismatist, David McCarthy, said it took more than a year of careful inspection before the firm would confirm
the photo's authenticity.

"When we first saw the photograph, we were understandably skeptical — an original Billy the Kid photo is the Holy Grail of Western Americana. ...

"We had to be certain that we could answer and verify where, when, how and why this photograph was taken. Simple resemblance is not enough
in a case like this — a team of experts had to be assembled to address each and every detail in the photo to insure that nothing was out of place.

"After more than a year of methodical study including my own inspection of the site, there is now overwhelming evidence of the image's authenticity."

The only other known photo of the outlaw was taken in 1880 in Fort Sumner, N.M. That photo, a 2-inch-by-3-inch tintype, pulled in $2.3 million in 2010,
according to Kagin's.

Billy the Kid, whose real name may have been Henry McCarty (he also used the alias William H. Bonney), has remained part of American frontier folklore
for generations. He was a famous thief and gunfighter who was captured and sentenced to death but escaped prison after killing two guards.

Legend has it that he killed 21 men, one for each year of his life. However, according to the New Mexico Tourism Department, the number was actually
nine: four that he was solely responsible for, including the two guards, and five he helped dispatch.

Billy the Kid was eventually tracked down and killed by Sheriff Pat Garrett at Fort Sumner in 1881.
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby NefariousNed on Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:43 pm

The question I have about the photo is, why did someone decide that it might be a photo of Billy The Kid and the Regulators?
Was the photo Studio in Fort Sumner, New Mexico, or anywhere in Lincoln County, for that matter. The article does not state.
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby stimbotdeguerra on Sat Oct 17, 2015 2:17 am

NefariousNed wrote:The question I have about the photo is, why did someone decide that it might be a photo of Billy The Kid and the Regulators?
Was the photo Studio in Fort Sumner, New Mexico, or anywhere in Lincoln County, for that matter. The article does not state.

They don't need location to figure that out, just a combination of guessing whom Billy could hang out with that safely at that point, and identifying a couple of the other guys in the photo as Regulators. I'm just assuming that some of the Regulators left enough portraiture to confirm that, but it's very likely, considering how important photos were in that milieu. There are four other men who look potentially identifiable, and you could look into whether any of the Regulators got married during that time frame.

If I were a photo collector or Western buff who had a good reversed copy of that famous shot of the Kid, and I took a good look at that new photo, I'd be yelling "Holy @#$%!" when I saw that figure. It's the Kid, all right: there's no mistaking the distinctive asymmetry of that face, especially at the eyebrows, and he's wearing either the exact same hat, or the exact same type as the canonical photo. I know how much the hat matters because I can walk into the weekly blues jam wearing a baseball cap instead of a fedora and many people don't recognize me at first. One of the reasons for wearing a distinctive hat back then was for recognition at a distance, to identify someone as friend or foe.

I've said it before: Provenance is easier to fake. The "internal evidence" of a convincing artifact trumps the external evidence of provenance. I know this to be true because we've got stuff from when my grandfather was SECNAV and unless there was a newspaper story or a memo or something else independently describing the presentation, you'd just be taking our word for it, even though the item had been in our possession all along. I think we have a little section of the first trans-Atlantic cable on a plaque that was given to him on some occasion, for example. Stop and think about how easy that would be to fake if you had a chunk of some cable or other. In fact, my grandfather had to trust that it was actually from that first cable, now that I think about it. I saw on History Detectives where someone beachcombing in New Jersey, IIRC, found a section of a cable that turned out to be from some subsidiary cable of relatively little note.

Provenance is nice, but stuff can wind up anywhere. Like I said, they may well have been able to identify the occasion, and some or all of the other men visible in the photo, even the two children.
EDIT: According to articles in the Guardian, that's precisely what they did--found the wedding info, identified two of the Regulators from other photos, and even excavated the site of the schoolhouse in the picture. But if the Kid had been in some other pose than leaning on a croquet mallet much the same way he leans on his rifle in the canonical photo, he could have been much harder to spot and confirm. Here's a link: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/13/billy-the-kid-croquet-junk-shop-two-dollars

You probably ought to take a day or two and look carefully at all those old Alamo photos you've got, Ned, there ain't no telling whom you might spot :shock:
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby TexasMarine on Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:22 pm

We have our own notorious outlaw story here in Round Rock, TX. This is where Sam Bass met his maker. All of the buildings this occurred in and around still stand and are in use in downtown Round Rock. The story goes:

In 1870, Sam Bass met up with a teamster headed to Denton, Texas where Sam found work as a farmhand and teamster. He saved his money and bought a racehorse and earned Sam enough money for him to quit his job and retire to a life of horse racing, gambling and hitting the saloons, never again holding a permanent job.

In December of 1875, Sam met Joel Collins in San Antonio. They decided to run a herd of cattle north. They ended up in Nebraska, sold the herd, and took up gold prospecting in the Black Hills and they ended up broke so they turned to robbing stages. They soon escalated to train robbing. After a very big initial score, they laid low for a while, but by February of 1878, Bass had begun to rob trains again. This kicked off a spree of robberies that resulted made the Governor decided it was time to call in the Texas Rangers.

The gang led the Rangers on long chases with narrow escapes. Led by Sam’s thorough knowledge of the back trails learned during his days as a teamster, the gang would suddenly appear somewhere only to disappear at the first sign of trouble. To flush the gang out, the Rangers conducted a sweep of all residents suspected of harboring the bandits. This resulted in the arrests of Jim Murphy and his father Henderson. Seeking immunity, and wanting the reward money, Jim agreed to rejoin the Bass Gang and betray Sam to the Rangers. After a few clashes between the gang and The Rangers, the gang decided it was time to head further south where things were a bit calmer.

Along their way to Round Rock, Jim Murphy slipped away from the gang and sent a letter to Major Jones of the Rangers telling him that the gang was going to Round Rock to rob the bank. Major Jones ordered 3 Rangers to Round Rock and watch for any members of the Bass Gang and then rode to Round Rock with deputy sheriff Morris Moore of Travis County.

Sam, Frank Jackson, Seaborn Barnes and Jim Murphy arrived in Round Rock Sunday night July 14. Monday they went into town to case the bank and get a shave. Sam and Seaborn wanted to steal some fresh horses and hit the bank as soon as possible. Murphy, stalling for time, suggested that stealing horses would only raise suspicions and that they should rest their horses and rob the bank on Saturday. After discussion, the gang decided that the robbery would occur at 3:30 P.M. on Saturday July 20.

On Friday the 19th, Sam, Frank and Seaborn went into New Town (the current downtown Round Rock area along Main Street) to case the bank. Murphy stayed behind in Old Town (the original part of Round Rock on the other side of I35) in the hopes of getting in contact with Major Jones. The gang hitched their horses in an alley and walked up the street to Kopperal’s General Store. At the same time, Ranger Ware crossed the street from Highsmith’s Livery Stable to the barber shop. He later recalled that he passed the gang at this point without realizing who they were. As the bandits crossed over to Kopperal’s store, they were also observed by Morris Moore, a Travis County deputy sheriff, and Deputy Sheriff Grimes of Williamson County.

Grimes indicated that he thought that one of the strangers was wearing a pistol, which was supposedly against the law in Round Rock. Another account mentioned that Grimes was concerned because he thought that Sam was wearing two pistols, which was one more than the law permitted in Round Rock. In any case, Grimes decided to investigate. He walked up to the bandits, asked Sam if he had a pistol, and Sam replied that he did (exactly what he said has been reported in different ways). Then Sam, Frank and Seaborn opened fire on Grimes, killing him instantly. Grimes never even had the opportunity to draw his gun; six bullet holes were found in his body.

Moore, who had been waiting outside the door of Kopperal’s Store, entered and opened fire, shooting Bass through the hand. He was then shot in the chest and was forced to discontinue the chase. The shooting had attracted the attention of Ranger Ware, who was receiving a shave at the time. He ran to the street, his face still lathered, and for a time single-handedly fought the fleeing gang. The firing had also attracted Major Jones, who was at the telegraph office. He met up with Ranger Ware and fired what was considered to be his only shot as a Texas Ranger at the fleeing gang. The gang returned fire, missing Jones but lodging a bullet in the stone wall behind him. Ware and Jones were also joined in the fight for a time by a one-armed man named Stubbs, who had picked up Grime’s gun and opened fire on the gang who had made their way back to the alley and were attempting to mount their horses. Ranger Harold and a local citizen named Conner shot at the gang with rifles. It was here that Ranger Harold believes that he inflicted the mortal wound on Bass. Also, Seaborn Barnes fell dead with a bullet wound to the head.

Frank Jackson and the wounded Sam escaped from the firing citizens and Rangers. Sam held onto his saddle horn but was unable to stay on his horse and fell to the ground. Frank held the charging Rangers and citizens at bay with his gun as he helped Sam back onto his horse, and they rode off with Frank steadying Sam.

After picking up their things at their camp, they turned up present day Chisholm Trail Road and turned down a lane headed towards the woods. Here Sam indicated that he was in too much pain to continue and insisted that Frank leave him and try to save himself. Reluctantly, Frank agreed. Sam gave him all of his money, guns, ammunition and his big bay horse, which was better than Frank’s. Frank left his horse with Sam, hid his saddle in the brush nearby, and rode off. But Frank did not abandon Sam. He camped nearby. Back in Round Rock, Jim Murphy went into New Town and identified the body of Seaborn Barnes.

The Rangers decided to call off the search for Bass until Saturday morning. Two searchers spotted a man propped up against a tree but assumed that he was only one of the railroad workers who were constructing the line of the Georgetown Railroad at the time. One of the men went up to Sam and Sam held up his hand and identified himself. The rest of the search party, including Jim Murphy, then appeared. Murphy identified Sam while hiding behind a tree. Bass told the Rangers that his wounds made him stop and that Frank had gone on. The Rangers put Sam in the back of a wagon and brought him back to Round Rock.

The dying Bass was placed in a small shack located on the lot at the intersection of present day Round Rock Avenue, Main Street and Mays. Major Jones questioned Bass but was unable to get any useful information about the other members of his gang. On Sunday, July 21, 1878, Sam died. It was his 27th birthday.

The Rangers hoped to take Bass’s body down to Austin in to convince the Congress that he had been caught and to justify their worth as a law enforcement agency, being that the Congress was discussing the Rangers appropriation at the time. But this plan was scrapped due to the summer heat and the inability to locate ice in which to pack his body. It was decided to bury him in the Round Rock Cemetery. His funeral procession consisted of two mules pulling a wagon with Sam’s plain pine coffin, attended by two men to dig his grave.

There was a debate, however, just where to bury him. They certainly did not want to bury him in the sanctified ground of the city cemetery amongst the good, God-fearing folk of Round Rock. But they also didn't want to just bury him anywhere. He was a bad guy, but he still should have a Christian burial. So they decided to bury him at the very edge of the cemetery right at the edge of the old slave cemetery. Seaborn is buried next to him. Sam's original stone marker was chipped away for souvenirs and eventually replaced by the present marker. What remains of the original is right behind it.

Deputy Grimes is buried in the same cemetery, but on the far side. It is said that Deputy Grimes' ghost is still roaming downtown Round Rock, particularly the old store where he was killed, now Quinn's Neighborhood Bar at the corner of Main and Mays.
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby cc nolen on Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:44 pm

Thanks for the report.....very interesting.
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby Seguin on Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:11 am

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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby jrboddie on Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:26 am

Neat find. Thanks for posting. People don't write letters like that anymore. They just send mean tweets.
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby warren on Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:53 pm

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This has never been posted before on any forum. I spend Fridays and Saturdays hitting estate and garages sales in Houston, Texas. The last two photos (actually one photo) is a what I believe to be a previously unknown photo of Clyde Barrow, taken by Bonnie or his brother Buck.

Why I believe this is of course the similarities of the known Clyde Barrow pictures, the first four photos that are from the internet. I took a long time to decipher the license plate of the car, but it appears to say "Houston" on it. I don't think that stands for the City of Houston, but rather Houston County, Texas. Houston County is home to its county seat, Crockett, Texas and was the home of the notorious Eastham Prison Unit. This was a prison Clyde Barrow hated so much that he returned there in 1934, and broke out several prisoners there in an incredible prison break.

The man in the photo is pointing a rifle or shotgun (I think a shotgun), but is not dressed for hunting. He is wearing a patterned tie, pants and vest, all similar to what Clyde Barrow wore. On the ground next to the car is a suitcase, and a valise or tool box. Note also the attached photo of his brother Buck in Crockett, Texas.

I think they were perhaps reconning the prison before the actual break. It would make sense to have a car with local plates in such a sparsely populated county. I do not believe the car in my photo is a car in the other photos, but the Barrows used many cars.

I have no real provenance. There is nothing on the back of the photo. I found the photo in a pile of old family photos in Houston, but this photo stood out as it did not match any of the other family photos and was a completely different type of photo from the rest.

I'd like for ya'll to look at it and let me have your critical thoughts. Thanks in advance.
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby NefariousNed on Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:39 pm

A great find, Warren! Hey, Bonnie and Clyde experts, please chime in here!
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby Seguin on Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:01 am

Interesting photos! I´ve never seen the photos before, except for the second one from the top.
I can´t tell if it´s Clyde in the last two photos so I´m afraid I can´t be of much help identifying it.
It´s the first time I see a photo of Buck Barrow.
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby warren on Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:21 pm

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Another known Clyde Barrow photo from the internet. This one is the only one I can find where he is pictured
with a very similar car to my photo above. He's sitting on the back bumper. Compare the large wooden spokes
in the wheel, and protruding axle hub in that car to my photo. The fender decorative imprints are identical.
I realize this doesn't add up to much, as the car is probably a Model T, and we know how many of those were
made, but at least it shows he had some connection to the earlier cars than his famous Ford V8.

Also, in further looking at my photo, there appears to be a tent or large blanket strapped to the side of the car.

Point of no particular interest, when they were ambushed and killed, Bonnie and Clyde's car contained around 12
stolen license plates, many from other states.
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby JoeFDNY146 on Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:47 am

Rick Range just showed me this the other day, the coffee shop Bonnie met Clyde in outside Dallas Joe
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby JoeFDNY146 on Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:58 am

This is the gas station Clydes Father owned, Clyde and his father lived in the rear half
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby whiterabbitt83 on Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:32 pm

what about the other gangsters
Baby Face Nelson
Machine Gun Kelly
and Pretty Boy Floyd
they were all media hogs
all get there mugs in the news
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby stimbotdeguerra on Mon Nov 28, 2016 1:17 am

Warren, I'm not a Bonnie & Clyde expert, but you don't need one to evaluate the resemblance. I'm not an expert on facial recognition either, but I've dealt with it a fair amount the past several years and learned a little about it. I'd have answered sooner, but I was skimming the day I first read your post and mistakenly thought you were asking about Buck Barrow, and I thought, "No, that really looks like the photos of Clyde in the post." Which I still think. You have got a live one there. Good eye.

It's unfortunate that the subject's arm blocks much of his face, but it's fortunate that the top half of Clyde Barrow's face was pretty distinctive, and that the subject's ear is showing. There's enough there to make a strong case, I bet.

Taking it from the top;
[list=]1. Hair: from the same angle, Clyde's swept hairstyle would look like your subject's, hairline probably the same
2. Forehead: Similar slope of forehead
3. Brows: Clyde's distinctive straight-across brow ridges are visible on your subject; ridges are formed by underlying bone
4. Nose: Clyde had a distinctive nose with a strong bridge that resembles your subject
5. Ear: ears are as individual as fingerprints in their inner/outer shapes and location on the skull, and the visible ear of your subject resembles Clyde's[/list]
Hairstyle can change, but numbers 2-5 could be more strongly confirmed via actual side-view mugshots of Clyde Barrow, so go round some up if you haven't already. I think your subject's ear is clear enough in your photo to really help get past the tipping point if confirmed by other photos. Ears do get bigger late in life but retain the same shape inside and out, but Clyde didn't live much longer, did he? The skull doesn't change significantly in adulthood either, apart from catastrophic injury.

Your subject's hands may be of some use as well, if Clyde had a distinctive finger-to-palm length ratio; may not be of any use in this instance, but hopefully you can understand how distinctive hands might be a factor in bolstering an identification claim.

And I should think that if you ran that photo past enough old car buffs, a positive ID would be possible--I'm often surprised at how little it takes commenters at the Shorpy photo site to identify ancient cars in shots of American streets a century ago. If the car in your photo were identified as a brand/model of car that Bonnie & Clyde are known to have used at some point, it's nothing conclusive, but does increase the possibility that your subject could be Clyde. Likewise, was a similar shotgun in the car when they were killed?

That is another point--I think there's a very plausible reason why your photo could be Clyde Barrow and yet have been buried and forgotten, isolated from any other original photo of them. If it's Clyde Barrow, it's Clyde Barrow aiming an extremely mundane weapon, one not associated with holding up banks. It's not a cut-down Colt Monitor or a tommy gun or semi-automatic pistol or revolver or even a "trench-cleaner" pump shotgun or a sawed-off shotgun, just an unglamorous side-by-side. It might accurately reflect how the Barrow gang sometimes fought law enforcement officers, but it's not a glamour gun so it was not a particularly desirable photo to publish or sell and could have wound up a singleton, not even surfacing ca. 1969. Slight damage to the print may have been a factor too.

Same as some Alamo stuff and other RoT artifacts: people forget what they are, or fail to tell someone, and it becomes just some old whatever that someone has around. If you don't believe that's possible, look into the history of the Ben Milam portrait in the 20th century, how it fell off the radar for decades. But the internal evidence of an artifact is actually harder to fake than the external evidence of provenance, despite people's tendency to worship at the altar of provenance. Provenance can make something more or less possible, more or less probable, or virtually certain. An original print at a garage sale in Houston with no info about the subject is possible enough.

Finding a genuine photo for a buck at a garage sale does engender massive envy in people, and boiling-hot suspicion of your eyesight, honesty, and motives, and thanks to the Internet, you can bet they will be motivated to chime in to that effect. Something to keep in mind is what is called prosopagnosia: a medical disorder where the person literally cannot recognize faces. There seems to be an equally rare opposing condition of being especially good at recognizing faces, and scientists theorize that our facial recognition ability probably falls on a bell curve between the two extremes--something analogous to having perfect musical pitch or the opposite. Scotland Yard is actually maintaining an ad hoc facial recognition unit that studies surveillance photos and video and the like--like something you'd see on TV, it was created by a maverick who brought in any cop who had the reputation of never forgetting faces; the story is at http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/08/22/londons-super-recognizer-police-force My point in bringing that up is that everybody believes they can recognize faces, but the truth is we're not all equally good at it, and if your photo is probably Clyde Barrow, some people just won't get it, and they won't know why they don't get it. For another factor, turn off the sound and watch this YouTube video for insight about comparing different images of the same person: https://youtu.be/uqTuo2yQBXM

I don't know what an unpublished photo of Clyde is worth, especially with the abovementioned mundane gun, but it would still be a previously unknown original print/picture, so the market would speak its mind. It's worth continuing to research the likely location/occasion of the photo, as that fascinates the general audience and somewhat compensates for the lack of provenance: "If that's Clyde Barrow, then it was probably when he was in _______ doing _______."

If you live in Houston, then you may know that Lois Gibson, one of the world's foremost forensic artists, works at HPD. She does consulting work on IDs as well, and charges a surprisingly low flat rate for evaluating a single image/person. You're betting the fee because it's the same whether or not her ID is positive, and is the same regardless of what the image might be worth. It's a highly controversial field, but the difference between a working forensic artist--of which there are maybe only a couple dozen worldwide--who works with living people or well-known dead ones, and a forensic anthropologist who works with dug-up old bones in the lab is something like the difference between a skilled cop on a beat and a shooting instructor working at the range--the daily stakes are a lot higher in the first case. Envy, greed, and that prosopagnosia issue all rear their heads in that field, along with the inevitable conflicts between competing experts, when the ID involves a well-known person. You don't have to bring in one or more expert opinions, but expert opinion helps your case if you want to make the claim that it's Clyde Barrow. If you want to do that, you need to round up copyrighted images of Clyde too, like the mugshots, because they'd be used privately in a consultation.

And bear in mind that a highly positive verdict from an expert would go something like, "If the provenance allows it, then that is Clyde Barrow, or his doppelganger"--and you can count on the media not including the last three words, or the first six ones, if you go public with it. The expert will be quoted out of context--guaranteed--and your character will be questioned--guaranteed. People are going to give you grief simply because it was you who found it at a garage sale and not them. Nonetheless, if you have indeed discovered what is almost certainly a lost image of a historical figure, and done the research seeking the probable location/occasion, and stuck your neck out in making and supporting the claim, you are to be credited with expanding the historical record of that person, quite apart from whether a collector badly wants to buy that image from you. If you do get a lead on precisely where and when the peripatetic Clyde might have been the subject of your photo, it's possible that no one has ever investigated Clyde's sojourn there as hard as you, despite all that's been published on Bonnie & Clyde, and you could add something, even if a small something, to the textual record of their career.
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby whiterabbitt83 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:04 am

i found a picture of babyface nelson
Image
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby warren on Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:22 pm

Stimbot - I am honored that you took the time to write such a thoughtful and well-reasoned analysis of the picture. It brought up some new ideas on exploring the background of it and where it might fit into the B&C saga. I am going to read those articles you referenced and check out the youtube video. Funny that you mentioned the hands. One of the first things I noticed when comparing known pictures of Clyde is the spiny-splaying nature of his fingers, which seems to fit the photo.

In all of this, I'm trying to avoid the phenomenon of trying to make the picture into something it isn't. I've been guilty of that before. When you want something to fit, you start seeing clues and similarities that may not actually be there. I did this a few weeks ago when I purchased at a flea market what I thought was a 1933 Babe Ruth baseball card. There were enough red flags that I should have passed, but I wanted it to be original and I tried to make the tell-tell differences fit. They didn't, and the card is a very good, aged reprint. That's why I welcome the comments and criticisms so I don't get trapped in linkage-blindness. Warts and all, it will be what it is. Certainly, if I had my druthers, the car would be a Ford V8 and he would be holding a BAR. And somebody would have signed the back "C. Barrow". Arguing against this being Clyde Barrow, that long shotgun or rifle is not the best thing to have in a getaway car as is it would be difficult to swing around inside. Yet a gun is a gun, and he did cut-down shotguns for use.

Re: Lois Gibson, I think I met her one time. I might contact her. Thanks again for your kind input!
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby stimbotdeguerra on Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:31 am

You're welcome, Warren. So long as you are consciously afraid of wishful thinking, you are probably OK--like what they say about crazy people not thinking they are crazy ;)

I didn't even think about the possibility the shotgun was going to be cut down later. That particular shooting stance looks distinctive too, as though it might appear in another photo, and just puts me in mind of firing early revolving carbines; I don't know if that precaution of keeping both hands clear was still a standard practice in military training, sport shooting, or just something Clyde Barrow would think up, given Barrow's apparent penchant for mulling how to commit crimes more successfully.

But that second photo of Clyde embracing Bonnie is indisputably useful for your case, showing pretty much the same part of his head at the same angles. You might wish the focus or resolution of both photos were better, but if the ear's shapes/location really are close on top of the other similar & distinctive features, then in the milieu/context/time frame shown by the photo, it becomes increasingly unlikely that it's anybody but Clyde Barrow, given how unique ears are.

You've done a good job of researching the possible context/occasion; just keep following your curiosity, chase that story because the story may be out there. It's amazing what kind of information can sit around in plain sight and not be spotted for what it is until someone comes along with the framework/context that makes it meaningful. There's a chance someone mentioned the model of car, or the use of such a gun, or the wearing of such a vest. And if diligent mug shots were taken, then there is some prime material for a forensic expert to work with. I did kind of wonder whether Clyde might have had Marfans Syndrome, where a man has distinctive hands and craggy features, like Abe Lincoln is sometimes speculated to have had. A forensic expert can do a much better analysis of all that than I can--I mean it's much more impressive when they're analyzing someone who didn't have distinctive features.

I will PM you about the latter in case it can help--
Last edited by stimbotdeguerra on Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby jrboddie on Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:00 am

Bonnie and Clyde in next week's episode of Timeless.
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby RLC-GTT on Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:17 am

NefariousNed wrote:Image
Interior of Lincoln Post Office, 1966.

Um........ I just saw this and I hate to tell you that it is in fact the inside of the Alamo Village General Store when it used to be in the Front Street building just past the cemetery that we later turned into a maintenance shop. That post office facade, originally from the old Brackettville Post Office, is now in our General Store display on Backstreet. The girl behind the counter is Darnice Hoover. It is indeed the summer of 1966. I know the store so well because I worked in it every day.
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby TexianAtHeartII on Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:55 am

whiterabbitt83 wrote:i found a picture of babyface nelson
Image


Haha, yeah. Mickey Rooney from the Baby Face Nelson movie of the late 50's. That's Leo Gordon next to him as John Dillinger.
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby warren on Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:18 pm

Going back to the Billy the Kid picture. I really believe that is the Kid in the photo, but have had a hard time reconciling the fact that the most famous outlaw of the West would play croquet. It just seems incongruous to me. I mean, imagine Clint Eastwood and Lee Van Cleef playing a game of croquet in a Spaghetti Western.

BUT... from an issue of True West "10 Great Gunfighters" - chapter on Kid Curry (Harvey Logan), "About noon on Wednesday, March 27, Logan and Carver challenged brothers Ben, George and Ed Kilpatrick to a game of croquet on the ranch lawn."

I would never doubt a game of pool, but now I have to reprogram my brain about outlaw conduct and customs.
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby K Hale on Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:29 pm

It's probably one of those things that used to be much rougher than we think of it now, like baseball.
Verum non in verbus, sed in testimonium.
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby TexianAtHeartII on Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:52 am

K Hale wrote:It's probably one of those things that used to be much rougher than we think of it now, like baseball.


Like William Holden in Stalag 17. After he's beaten up, a Red Cross guy visits the prison camp and sees his beaten face and asks how it happened. Holden just says, he was playing pinochle, it's a very rough game.
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby warren on Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:38 pm

K Hale wrote:It's probably one of those things that used to be much rougher than we think of it now, like baseball.


Amen to that. Like Ty Cobb sharpening his cleats with a file in the locker room before games, or going into the stands after a fan.
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby warren on Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:14 pm

As we know, one of Clyde Barrow's favorite weapons was the Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR), which he stole from armories, and usually cut the barrel down for ease of use in a car.

Although I'm not big on posting You.tube videos, take a look at the damage one does to a cider block wall! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2jRwp19csA . The shooting starts around the 4:30 mark. Can't imagine what this would do to a pursuing car and the people inside.
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby Seguin on Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:22 am

warren wrote:As we know, one of Clyde Barrow's favorite weapons was the Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR), which he stole from armories, and usually cut the barrel down for ease of use in a car.

Although I'm not big on posting You.tube videos, take a look at the damage one does to a cider block wall! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2jRwp19csA . The shooting starts around the 4:30 mark. Can't imagine what this would do to a pursuing car and the people inside.


Here it is:

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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby Seguin on Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:49 am

It looks like Bonnie had a husband in prison when she was killed together with Clyde. Too bad, there´s no year on the article, but it´s probably from the year they were killed (1934).
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby Sharkman on Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:58 pm

if I am wrong just correct me . But isn't today the anniversary of Bonnie and Clyde being killed :?:
When I was young I saw their car man it was shot to Hell ! They took no chances that day .
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Re: Bonnie & Clyde and Other Notorious Gangsters

Postby Seguin on Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:43 am

Sharkman wrote:if I am wrong just correct me . But isn't today the anniversary of Bonnie and Clyde being killed :?:
When I was young I saw their car man it was shot to Hell ! They took no chances that day .


It looks like they were killed at May 23, 1934:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnie_and_Clyde
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