Charles Dickens' A CHRISTMAS CAROL

Discussion On All Aspects Of Books & Literature

Moderator: NefariousNed

Re: Charles Dickens' A CHRISTMAS CAROL

Postby NefariousNed on Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:03 am

Seguin wrote:Funny title considering Dickens did´nt invent Christmas.

Well the Dickens-described Christmas customs are what we follow in the US and elsewhere.
Holly and berries and big family dinners, Christmas Carols being sung with good cheer.
Perhaps an English Christmas that never really was, existing only in Dickens' stories.
The "OUTSIDE THE ALAMO, Songs of Ned Huthmacher Performed by John Beland" CD Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/OutsideTheAlamo/
User avatar
NefariousNed
Moderator
 
Posts: 53197
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:48 pm

Re: Charles Dickens' A CHRISTMAS CAROL

Postby Seguin on Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:23 am

NefariousNed wrote:
Seguin wrote:Funny title considering Dickens did´nt invent Christmas.

Well the Dickens-described Christmas customs are what we follow in the US and elsewhere.
Holly and berries and big family dinners, Christmas Carols being sung with good cheer.
Perhaps an English Christmas that never really was, existing only in Dickens' stories.


Right, but he did´nt invent the things you mention, nor Christmas.

Btw, the Christmas tree is a German invention:

"Germany is credited with starting the Christmas tree tradition as we now know it in the 16th century when devout Christians brought decorated trees into their homes. Some built Christmas pyramids of wood and decorated them with evergreens and candles if wood was scarce. It is a widely held belief that Martin Luther, the 16th-century Protestant reformer, first added lighted candles to a tree. Walking toward his home one winter evening, composing a sermon, he was awed by the brilliance of stars twinkling amidst evergreens. To recapture the scene for his family, he erected a tree in the main room and wired its branches with lighted candles.

Most 19th-century Americans found Christmas trees an oddity. The first record of one being on display was in the 1830s by the German settlers of Pennsylvania, although trees had been a tradition in many German homes much earlier. The Pennsylvania German settlements had community trees as early as 1747. But, as late as the 1840s Christmas trees were seen as pagan symbols and not accepted by most Americans.

It is not surprising that, like many other festive Christmas customs, the tree was adopted so late in America. To the New England Puritans, Christmas was sacred. The pilgrims’s second governor, William Bradford, wrote that he tried hard to stamp out “pagan mockery” of the observance, penalizing any frivolity. The influential Oliver Cromwell preached against “the heathen traditions” of Christmas carols, decorated trees, and any joyful expression that desecrated “that sacred event.” In 1659, the General Court of Massachusetts enacted a law making any observance of December 25 (other than a church service) a penal offense; people were fined for hanging decorations. That stern solemnity continued until the 19th century, when the influx of German and Irish immigrants undermined the Puritan legacy.

In 1846, the popular royals, Queen Victoria and her German Prince, Albert, were sketched in the Illustrated London News standing with their children around a Christmas tree. Unlike the previous royal family, Victoria was very popular with her subjects, and what was done at court immediately became fashionable—not only in Britain, but with fashion-conscious East Coast American Society. The Christmas tree had arrived.

By the 1890s Christmas ornaments were arriving from Germany and Christmas tree popularity was on the rise around the U.S. It was noted that Europeans used small trees about four feet in height, while Americans liked their Christmas trees to reach from floor to ceiling.

The early 20th century saw Americans decorating their trees mainly with homemade ornaments, while the German-American sect continued to use apples, nuts, and marzipan cookies. Popcorn joined in after being dyed bright colors and interlaced with berries and nuts. Electricity brought about Christmas lights, making it possible for Christmas trees to glow for days on end. With this, Christmas trees began to appear in town squares across the country and having a Christmas tree in the home became an American tradition."

http://www.history.com/topics/christmas ... tmas-trees
Recuerden El Alamo!
User avatar
Seguin
 
Posts: 16805
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:40 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark.

Re: Charles Dickens' A CHRISTMAS CAROL

Postby SantaClaus on Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:51 am

It's a personal tradition for me to watch "A Christmas Carol" every year around this time. My two favorite versions are the 1984 made for TV movie starring George C. Scott ant the 1951 movie starring Alastair Sim.
Speaking of Christmas trees, I long ago gave up getting a real evergreen tree each years, and have been using artificial trees for some time. I enjoy this time of year so much that I start decorating very early. Been working hard to have everything in place by Thanksgiving, which falls on November 23 this year.
My 7 1/2 foot tree is up and decorated with 300-400 ornaments, hundreds of lights, tinsel garland, and a big star on top.
In a spare bedroom, I've got a miniature Christmas village set up with over 60 lit up buildings and a Christmas train.
The living room has a special green and white rug that I roll out for this time of year, the book shelves are adorned with a variety of Santa figurines and other Christmas decor, the fireplace mantel holds my Nativity scene and other religious items and candle sticks, while 16 had-sewn (by Loretta) stockings hang above the fireplace.
My entrance hall/foyer has walls papered over with faux red brick, and the walls are decorated with colorful images of Santa, Christmas bells, toy soldiers, candy canes, tinsel and more. The foyer is in transition as some fall and Thanksgiving decorations are also displayed there. It will be 100% Christmas decorations after Thanksgiving.
Yesterday, I put 100 colored lights up along the edge of the roof. I'm getting too old and out of shape for that kind of work. It took me a few hours to do what used to take one hour. My shirt was soaked in sweat, I tore my pants, and was completely exhausted by the time I got the lights plugged in.
But it was all worth it. I have the outside lights on a timer, and when they came on they were beautiful.
There's no "Bah, Humbug!" around here. :D
User avatar
SantaClaus
 
Posts: 1758
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:43 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Charles Dickens' A CHRISTMAS CAROL

Postby NefariousNed on Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:28 pm

Seguin wrote:
NefariousNed wrote:
Seguin wrote:Funny title considering Dickens did´nt invent Christmas.

Well the Dickens-described Christmas customs are what we follow in the US and elsewhere.
Holly and berries and big family dinners, Christmas Carols being sung with good cheer.
Perhaps an English Christmas that never really was, existing only in Dickens' stories.


Right, but he did´nt invent the things you mention, nor Christmas...




Not "invented", Hans.( Bad, misleading movie title, by the way) but rather popularized internationally for all time. Dickens' "A Christmas Carol"
remains wildly popular with both readers and movie-goers alike. As a matter of fact, I don't think there is a single US TV sitcom that has not done a
variation on the Scrooge theme. While it is true that different nationalities (and religions) have had their own traditions, Dickens drew them all together into
one tight Christmas package of a storyline. Even in non-Christmas-like situations like the costuming of THE ALAMO (2004) when the costume designer explained
how the Texians should look more or less, "Dirty Dickens" most people would understand what he meant, thanks to the influence of "A Christmas Carol.

In a nutshell: many people everywhere equate Charles Dickens' story with Christmas, much like people have said, "I't not really Christmas, unless you hear Bing
Crosby music in the background."

As to the man who really "invented" Christmas, that credit should go to St. Francis of Assisi who was the first to place the occasion on December 25 as sort of
the Christian answer to the pagan Winter Solstice celebrations of December 21st. (But that's yet another story.)
The "OUTSIDE THE ALAMO, Songs of Ned Huthmacher Performed by John Beland" CD Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/OutsideTheAlamo/
User avatar
NefariousNed
Moderator
 
Posts: 53197
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:48 pm

Re: Charles Dickens' A CHRISTMAS CAROL

Postby NefariousNed on Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:32 pm

SantaClaus wrote:It's a personal tradition for me to watch "A Christmas Carol" every year around this time... :D


Nice Christmas traditions, Santa. Thanks for sharing.
The "OUTSIDE THE ALAMO, Songs of Ned Huthmacher Performed by John Beland" CD Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/OutsideTheAlamo/
User avatar
NefariousNed
Moderator
 
Posts: 53197
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:48 pm

Re: Charles Dickens' A CHRISTMAS CAROL

Postby Seguin on Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:17 am

Not "invented", Hans.( Bad, misleading movie title, by the way)...


Then we agree! ;) - It was the movie title I was referring to when I said he did´nt invent Christmas and nothing else. I´m well aware his Scrooge story is known all over the western world (and probably beyond too).

As to the man who really "invented" Christmas, that credit should go to St. Francis of Assisi who was the first to place the occasion on December 25 as sort of
the Christian answer to the pagan Winter Solstice celebrations of December 21st. (But that's yet another story.)


It was one of the ways the church used for making pagans become Christians. That way the pagans would´nt have to give up their traditional winter solstice feast. It´s no accident Jesus´ birthday is on Dec. 25th. It looks like the pagan summer solstice celebrations was also "Christianized":

"The Germanic Pagan solstice celebrations (Midsummer festivals) are also sometimes referred to by Neopagans and others as Litha, stemming from Bede's De temporum ratione and the fire festival or Litha was a tradition for many pagans. This pagan holiday was basically brought in and given a name change, and in Christianity was then associated with the nativity of John the Baptist, which now is observed on the same day, June 24, in the Catholic, Orthodox and some Protestant churches. It is six months before Christmas because Luke 1:26 and Luke 1.36 imply that John the Baptist was born six months earlier than Jesus, although the Bible does not say at which time of the year this happened."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian ... candinavia

I think I´ll watch "Mickey´s Christmas Carol" this Christmas. It´s made over Dickens´ story. I have it on DVD, but it´s also on Youtube:

Recuerden El Alamo!
User avatar
Seguin
 
Posts: 16805
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:40 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark.

Re: Charles Dickens' A CHRISTMAS CAROL

Postby SantaClaus on Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:32 pm

Seguin wrote:
It was one of the ways the church used for making pagans become Christians. That way the pagans would´nt have to give up their traditional winter solstice feast. It´s no accident Jesus´ birthday is on Dec. 25th. It looks like the pagan summer solstice celebrations was also "Christianized":


Almost every day on the Calendar is day for Catholics to celebrate a feast in remembrance of an important event mentioned in the Scriptures or blessed event or holy saints that are worthy of remembrance and celebration. These "Feast Days" came slowly at first, as the growing Church first focused upon Christ's teachings and celebrated His sacrifice by crucifixion and His conquering of sin and death by His Resurrection, i.e., Easter. Filling the calendar with Feast Days was a gradual process. Christians learned of the event of Christ's birth from the scriptures and from the first teachers and missionaries who taught using the scriptures. Like other Feast Days, the Feast of the Nativity of the Lord was celebrated with a Mass. This Mass is what we commonly call the Christ Mass, now shortened to Christmas.

The Reason for Choosing December 25

Although the date of Christ’s birth is not given to us in Scripture, there is documented evidence that December 25 was already of some significance to Christians prior to A.D. 354. One example can be found in the writings of Hyppolytus of Rome, who explains in his Commentary on the book of Daniel (c. A.D. 204) that the Lord’s birth was believed to have occurred on that day:
For the first advent of our Lord in the flesh, when he was born in Bethlehem, was December 25th, Wednesday, while Augustus was in his forty-second year, but from Adam, five thousand and five hundred years. He suffered in the thirty-third year, March 25th, Friday, the eighteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, while Rufus and Roubellion were Consuls.
The reference to Adam can be understood in light of another of Hyppolytus’ writings, the Chronicon, where he explains that Jesus was born nine months after the anniversary of Creation. According to his calculations, the world was created on the vernal equinox, March 25, which would mean Jesus was born nine months later, on December 25.

Nineteenth-century liturgical scholar Louis Duchesne explains that “towards the end of the third century the custom of celebrating the birthday of Christ had spread throughout the whole Church, but that it was not observed everywhere on the same day” (Christian Worship, Its Origin and Evolution: a study of the Latin liturgy up to the time of Charlemagne, p. 260).

In the West, the birth of Christ was celebrated on December 25, and in the East on January 6.

Duchesne writes “one is inclined to believe that the Roman Church made choice of the 25th of December in order to enter into rivalry with Mithraism. This reason, however, leaves unexplained the choice of the 6th of January” (ibid., p. 261). His solution, therefore, was that the date of Christ’s birth was decided by using as a starting point the same day on which he was believed to have died. This would explain the discrepancies between the celebrations in the East and West.

Given the great aversion on the part of some Christians to anything pagan, the logical conclusion here is that one celebration has nothing to do with the other. In his book, Spirit of the Liturgy, Pope Benedict XVI explains:

The claim used to be made that December 25 developed in opposition to the Mithras myth, or as a Christian response to the cult of the unconquered sun promoted by Roman emperors in the third century in their efforts to establish a new imperial religion. However, these old theories can no longer be sustained. The decisive factor was the connection of creation and Cross, of creation and Christ’s conception (p. 105-107).


So, I would say that the birth of Christ is a gift from God, an event written of in the New Testament Scriptures and foretold in the Old Testament Scriptures. It was remembered and celebrated on different dates and in different ways by early Christians, but was given a formal unified date for celebration on the Church calendar so that the Church could pray together, as the Church does in all things. It may be true that Christmas replaced or overshadowed some pagan feast days, but that is more of a coincidence than a planned purpose for selecting December 25. Almost any date chosen would have coincided with a pagan feast day because the pagan calendar was full of its own feast days.
December 25 may or may not be the precise date of Christ's birth, but it chosen for scholarly reasons to mark the date of His birth, as best could be determined, and not simply to give pagans a better reason to celebrate on that date.
User avatar
SantaClaus
 
Posts: 1758
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:43 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Charles Dickens' A CHRISTMAS CAROL

Postby SantaClaus on Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:18 pm

I realize that my above post is slightly off the topic of Charles Dickens' A CHRISTMAS CAROL.
Just wanted to give some input as to why Christmas being is on December 25.

I understand the "Man Who Invented Christmas" label as it is applied to Dickens. Like many others, our family associated Christmas with Dickens' Christmas Carol and the things it includes. Our Christmas goose is a turkey. We recognize Christmas as a special day with deep meaning, and not a "Humbug". It's a special time for charity. A time to melt our frozen hearts and let the love flow in as well as out. We remember our past, make better the present, and plan for the future. When Dickens wrote A Christmas Carol, the Earth was experiencing a mini ice age, so we associate snow with the Christmas season.

Besides Dickens, its true that we have adopted and adapted symbols and celebrations from many cultures, pagan and Christian. We use evergreen trees and evergreen wreaths as symbols of everlasting life. Electric lights have replaced candles as symbols or the countless stars for some or as symbols of life to others. Glass ornaments replaced the fruit once hung from Christmas trees as gifts.

Of course I believe in Santa Claus. I enjoy the mythical Santa drawn from Nordic lore, and who was turned into today's Santa through "T'was the Night Before Christmas", plus a Coca Cola Santa advertising gimmick, and Christmas songs such as "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" and "Santa Claus is Coming to Town". That's all fun, but I also remember the real Santa, St. Nicholas the 4th century Bishop of Myra (in present day Turkey), a real person known for his charity, his Christian love. The stories about him are legendary, true or not. Those stories include his nightly secret visits to help the poor by tossing coins through open windows as they slept, or dropping the coins down chimneys where they landed in nearby shoes or even in stockings hung there to dry.

I love all these stories and traditions from Dickens and everyone else. They are incorporated into our family's celebrations every year. But without the Christ Mass, Christmas would mean very little to me. Sorry if "I sound like a Bible beater yelling up a revival at a river crossing camp meeting." :D
User avatar
SantaClaus
 
Posts: 1758
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:43 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Charles Dickens' A CHRISTMAS CAROL

Postby Seguin on Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:11 am

Almost any date chosen would have coincided with a pagan feast day because the pagan calendar was full of its own feast days.


I don´t think so because the solstice feasts were special. The question is whether or nor Jesus´ birthday being placed on Dec. 25th where the pagans held their winter solstice feasts was a coincidence or if it was deliberate in order to make it easier to converts the pagans to become Christians.
I had a look on google and while I did´nt make a thorough search I did find something about it:

Though we are more familiar now with the so-called Christmas season, connected with the winter solstice, there has always been something religious or spiritual about this time of year that antedates the Christian era. The traditions of caroling and midnight service, and common symbols in the celebration of Christmas, like mistletoes, decorated trees, candles and lights, wreaths and hollies, among others, were present in European paganism long before the advent of Christianity. Christmas is therefore the “Christianization” of the winter solstice celebration, whose institutionalization over time has led to the theft of most, if not all, of the major highlights from the pagan world.
... The pagan winter solstice is an exaltation of the human spirit’s rebirth and revitalization, from “the dark nights of the soul” (“la noche oscura del alma”, with apologies to St. John of the Cross) into the energizing warmth of a radiant morning. It is the grandeur of this splendid background that the Christian religion stole for its prevailing celebration called Christmas, to the point of claiming: “It is not the birth of the Sun but rather that of the Son.”
Christianity, whose key figure, Jesus Christ, is a paragon of humility, should be humble enough not to monopolize the significance of the annual December 25 celebration. Deities from other religions whose births, in different periods, have been celebrated on the same date include: Attis and Dionysus, both of Greece; Mithra of Persia; Salivahana of Bermuda; Odin of Scandinavia; Crite of Chaldez; Thammuz of Syria; Addad of Assyria, and Beddru of Japan.
... It is tragic that the originally spiritual celebration of the pagan winter solstice has been ruined by the materialism of modern nominal Christianity. The modern winter solstice celebration has become commercialized and has lost, not only the graciousness originally associated with ancient pagan spirituality, but also the magnanimity of Christian virtues exemplified by the teachings of Jesus Christ.

http://newsjunkiepost.com/2014/12/21/wi ... nsumerism/

Many symbols and practices associated with Christmas are of Pagan origin: holly, ivy, mistletoe, yule log, the giving of gifts, decorated evergreen tree, magical reindeer, etc. Polydor Virgil, a 15th century British Christian, said

"Dancing, masques, mummeries, stageplays, and other such Christmas disorders now in use with Christians, were derived from these Roman Saturnalian and Bacchanalian festivals; which should cause all pious Christians eternally to abominate them."

In Massachusetts, Puritans unsuccessfully tried to ban Christmas entirely during the 17th century, because of its heathenism. The English Parliament abolished Christmas in 1647. Some contemporary Christian faith groups have refused to celebrate Christmas. Included among these was the Worldwide Church of God (before its recent conversion to Evangelical Christianity) and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/winter_solstice0.htm

Christmas day, by other names, "was the ancient feast-day of the Sun, in the depths of winter", pre-dating Christianity1. But the exact date of the Winter Solstice changes slowly over time. "So, although the solstice moved progressively from 6 January to 25 December, some traditions continued to celebrate it on the familiar night. Today it falls around 22 December"5. The Roman religion of Mithraism, which existed for hundreds of years before Christians started celebrating Christmas, holds that the birth of Mithras was on the 25th of December. In another coincidence, the birth of Mithras was also said 'to have been witnessed by three shepherds.

"Most Christmas customs are, in fact, based on old pagan festivals, the Roman Saturnalia and the Scandinavian and Teutonic Yule. Christians adopted these during the earliest period of Church history. The Church, however, has given this recognition and incorporates it into the Church year without too many misgivings. Only the more radical fundamentalist elements in some churches protest from time to time about this mixing of 'pagan' elements into the religion.”
"The Phenomenon Of Religion: A Thematic Approach"
Moojan Momen (1999) [Book Review]

http://www.humanreligions.info/christmas.html#25th

We hear a lot about how Christmas is a Christian holiday, which it is, but important facts are being forgotten. One is that Jesus wasn’t actually born on Dec. 25. Another is that many of our Christmas traditions—the lights, decorations and gatherings—originated with pagan cultures.

One reader, John Conner, commented to that effect yesterday. He said:

This whole controversy is bogus to begin with. Any biblical scholar worth his or her salt will tell you that Jesus WAS NOT born on Dec. 25. That is the date of the pagan feast of Yule, closely following the winter solstice a few days prior. Many, many traditions celebrate Dec. 25 as a holy day, not just Christians.

On the Christian History website, Elesha Coffman wrote that for Christianity’s first three centuries Christmas wasn’t even celebrated. She wrote:

If observed at all, the celebration of Christ’s birth was usually lumped in with Epiphany (January 6), one of the church’s earliest established feasts. Some church leaders even opposed the idea of a birth celebration. Origen (c.185-c.254) preached that it would be wrong to honor Christ in the same way Pharaoh and Herod were honored. Birthdays were for pagan gods.

The Yule holiday is rooted in German paganism. Modern-day Wiccans still celebrate the winter solstice as a time of rebirth.

Coffman wrote that Dec. 25 also marked two other festivals: natalis solis invicti, the Roman “birth of the unconquered sun”, and the birthday of Mithras, the Iranian “Sun of Righteousness.” Since pagans were already celebrating deities with some parallels to the true God, Coffman wrote, church leaders decided to commandeer the date and introduce a new festival.

Remolding pagan traditions into a Christian holiday was pretty clever. You might even say it was devious. Either way, it turned out for the good. December is now a time where a melting pot of faiths and cultures celebrate the best of humanity: our charitable instincts, a trust in a higher power and the desire to see good win out over evil.

I choose to celebrate as a Catholic grateful that Christ was brought into this world, giving us all a shot at redemption. But I refuse to embrace the notion among today’s Christian leaders that Christmas has been hijacked by a collection of pagans who deny Christ’s divinity.

It was the other way around, many centuries ago.

My more-extreme Christian brothers and sisters need to get over it.

http://theocddiaries.com/faith-2/how-ch ... -holidays/
Recuerden El Alamo!
User avatar
Seguin
 
Posts: 16805
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:40 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark.

Re: Charles Dickens' A CHRISTMAS CAROL

Postby NefariousNed on Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:20 am

John, Debora, and I had to drive all the way to Lincoln to see "The Man Who Invented Christmas" as it is still in limited release, but it certainly
was well worth the effort. Whereas the earlier DVD version "Ghosts Of Dickens' Past" presents a more family-friendly take on how Dickens came
to write his beloved "A Christmas Carol", "The Man Who Invented Christmas" tells a darker, grittier story. And while in both movies Dickens is
driven by the need for a best-selling novel to help pay his debts, as well as support his burgeoning family, the latest version paints the author as a
man more in despair, haunted by his own ghosts. His desperation to get the book released by Christmas even turns him into a character very like
Scrooge himself as he lashes out at family and friends who only seek to support him. Characters in the book aren't much help to him either as when
he sits toiling at his writing desk, images of Scrooge (Christopher Plummer) Marley, and the Spirits of Christmas Past, Present, and Future cause
him to reflect upon his own life and the direction in which it is now turning. With enough heart and sentimentality to cause a bit of thawing about the
eyes, "The Man Who Invented Christmas" is also able to hold the interest of the viewer for its 90 very odd minutes.

While the auditorium where we saw the 2:20 PM matinee showing of "The Man Who Invented Christmas" had only a handful of viewers and the film
may ultimately lose money, (like Dickens' book initially did) as one of the characters in "A Christmas Carol" points out, "What's wrong with that", if it
tells a story that needs telling? As Dickens, Scrooge, and we the audience all find out, money isn't everything, after all.
The "OUTSIDE THE ALAMO, Songs of Ned Huthmacher Performed by John Beland" CD Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/OutsideTheAlamo/
User avatar
NefariousNed
Moderator
 
Posts: 53197
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:48 pm

Re: Charles Dickens' A CHRISTMAS CAROL

Postby Rick on Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:52 am

Ned, thanks for the review of this one. I've been pondering whether to see it. Sounds worthwhile.
"When the going gets tough, the tough use Duct tape."
Rick
 
Posts: 1051
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:48 am

Re: Charles Dickens' A CHRISTMAS CAROL

Postby Seguin on Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:43 am

Nice review! It sounds like a movie worth watching.
Recuerden El Alamo!
User avatar
Seguin
 
Posts: 16805
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:40 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark.

Previous

Return to Books & Literature

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest