Actual measurements of the Wayneamo compound

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Actual measurements of the Wayneamo compound

Postby Travis247 on Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:40 pm

Rich,John,Ned-

Perhaps you guys can answer this question for me. The actual size of the Wayneamo compound when it was built back in the late 50s. South wall gate house, west wall, North wall, and along the back east wall. Also the height of the chapel.
Rebuilding my Alamo diorama (1/72 scale) and trying to expand some of the compound that I orignally made too narrow and too short. Hope you guys can give me some help here. And what is that white "foam rubber" looking stuff hanging over in the NW corner? Thanks.

Frank
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Re: Actual measurements of the Wayneamo compound

Postby NefariousNed on Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:58 pm

RLC_GTT wrote:Alfred Ybarra, who designed the Waynamo, was basing his groundplan on the Reuben M. Potter plat which we now know to be quite inaccurate. And frankly, I think Ybarra threw all this out the window and finally built the set from the Frederick Ray "Bird's Eye View" illustration that we all love. Plus his movie "cheats" for the Todd-AO lens which included things like making the long barrack 140 feet long instead of 191+, and greatly forshortening the eastern extension and the "low wall." He also moved the chapel forward ten or fifteen feet to make it "play" better for the camera...


RLC-GTT wrote:
JB BOOKS wrote:Another thing is that I had always heard that the Waynamo scale was 75% (though the chapel is approximately the historical size): if you follow the 190+12+62 formula, you end up with the 450' west wall, which is just about 320', or a few feet shy of 75%. Ybarra must have considered the Alamo to be about 450' long.

The 75% scale of the Ybarramo is publicity package information -- a simple way to explain the difference to a general audience. This was often brought up by visitors to Alamo Village (and I think I used it myself for a while), but I would correct that to 2/3 scale as a general description. In reality, however, an art director isn't ever thinking one specific scale difference. It's all based on the visual concept of the movie. What will be in the deep background most of the time (the north end); what will be in the audience's face with people in front for comparison (the chapel)... etc. Ybarra made the Alamo chapel 60 feet wide (almost the correct 62 plus feet) because that was the famous icon and Duke wanted it rendered correctly, but he also made the building only 75 feet front to back rather than 104 feet, since the Potter plat labeled it as 75 feet long IN SPITE of the whole building still being there! If Ybarra was going from any measurements, they were from this source. Potter (and thus John Myers Myers and Lon Tinkle) described the compound as being "154 yards by 54 yard." Thus I would agree that Ybarra considered the real thing to have been "about 450' long" (or 462 feet, as per Potter). The actual measurement of Ybarra's west wall is 350 feet. If you cut 462 to 3/4 size, it is 346.5, so the west wall is pretty close to 3/4 scale. His long barrack too (at 140 feet) is close to 3/4 (which would be 143.25 feet). But, from what we know now, the size of his plaza is more like 2/3, and that is what people usually mean when tourists would ask me, "Is this how big it was?" Sorry, I know this is TMI, but, hey, you asked and I was bored. :lol:


RLC-GTT wrote:
gh1836 wrote:Question for Rich or anyone else who might know. How many feet long is the palisade wall at the Waynamo? Thanks in advance.

A little shy of 60 feet, probably about 57. Can't find my measurements plat, but that's what I conclude from Google Earth. Michael Corenblith's was nearly identical in length. The real palisade was 115 feet.


These quotes of Richard Curilla's are from the "Film Set And Location " thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
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Re: Actual measurements of the Wayneamo compound

Postby NefariousNed on Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:04 pm

Travis247 wrote:Rich,John,Ned-

...what is that white "foam rubber" looking stuff hanging over in the NW corner?... Frank Travis247


The Golbey brothers seem to interpret the hangings as sort of crude woven burlap used to keep the sun out. Or even just Mexican blankets.
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Re: Actual measurements of the Wayneamo compound

Postby RLC-GTT on Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:48 pm

I don't have my photos available and no time to dig around, but the "foam rubber" things you are talking about (LOL) are yet more of the straw matts they used for everything -- and we still have floating around Alamo Village. They were (are) very handy for masking things you don't want the camera to see. And nobody questions them because they are period correct -- except of course you nuts. :lol: Another place you can see them is the underside of the roof of the main entrance porte-cochere. I think it's when Crockett and Bowie go in with Crockett's Tennesseans -- or perhaps when Travis shoots the Mexican dragoon off the horse after the Raid for Cattle.
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Re: Actual measurements of the Wayneamo compound

Postby RLC-GTT on Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:21 am

Just checked. The mats in the porte-cochere used for a ceiling (so you can't see 2x4's) are plainly visible when Crockett and his men ride in "cut-slash-and run." They are also used over the area in the back courtyard where Travis rails Bowie for the cannon episode. The best view of the straw mats is in Travis' Errol Flynn sword fight. In the very first shot after Dickinson fires his cannon, when it cuts to Travis fighting, freeze frame it and you'll see the straw mats hanging over the end of the ramada in the background of the scene. One's even falling down.
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Re: Actual measurements of the Wayneamo compound

Postby NefariousNed on Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:41 am

RLC-GTT wrote: ... They (the mats) are also used over the area in the back courtyard where Travis rails Bowie for the cannon episode...

And then, curiously, in the final assault, they are missing from this area when Bull meets his death.
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Re: Actual measurements of the Wayneamo compound

Postby RLC-GTT on Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:47 am

NefariousNed wrote:
RLC-GTT wrote: ... They (the mats) are also used over the area in the back courtyard where Travis rails Bowie for the cannon episode...

And then, curiously, in the final assault, they are missing from this area when Bull meets his death.

Yeah, continuity was a real mess on that movie.
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Re: Actual measurements of the Wayneamo compound

Postby RLC-GTT on Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:49 am

Like the Tennessean in the Cantina who disappears after being dazed by the guy who punches him and takes the girl off his shoulders. Terrible! And I didn't notice until many many years into watching the movie. :lol:
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Re: Actual measurements of the Wayneamo compound

Postby gh1836 on Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:39 am

Bad continuity, good editing huh Rich? ;)
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Re: Actual measurements of the Wayneamo compound

Postby RLC-GTT on Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:18 am

Precisely why I didn't notice. Yep, Stuart Gilmore had it down. He could place your eye anywhere he wanted to in that giant Todd-AO frame. A viewer always sees eyes first. When the shot changed from Wayne's P.O.V. of the guy sitting on the trunk stunned to the camera angle including Wayne with the trunk in the background from Laurence Harvey's P.O.V., the edit comes just as Wayne turns toward the camera. Thus you automatically look at his eyes and then continue to look at him as he speaks his line. If Gilmore had cut into the shot one second earlier (24 frames), Wayne would have had his back to the camera looking at the trunk -- and so would we be looking at the trunk, with no Tennessean on it. Masterful editing!
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Re: Actual measurements of the Wayneamo compound

Postby MUSTANG on Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:26 pm

Like Stuart told his son Bill, Bill told me and I'm telling you. "A cannon is a cannon is a cannon. No one cares if the continuity is off. No one is going to notice." Little did he realize the buffs would analyze frame by fame. LOL!
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Re: Actual measurements of the Wayneamo compound

Postby RLC-GTT on Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:37 am

And let that be a lesson to him! :lol:
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Re: Actual measurements of the Wayneamo compound

Postby Travis247 on Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:36 pm

MUSTANG wrote:Like Stuart told his son Bill, Bill told me and I'm telling you. "A cannon is a cannon is a cannon. No one cares if the continuity is off. No one is going to notice." Little did he realize the buffs would analyze frame by fame. LOL!



All the times Ive watched this film I could never take my eyes off the black styrofoam cannon rolling down the NW corner ramp with Harvey after the NW cannon exploded, also the cannon wheel looks to be made of styrofoam also. Similar to the blown up bricks and rocks from the west wall breakthrough. Wind just keeps blowing one of those pieces. But you know, if comes on again this week Ill watch it again. LOL.

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Re: Actual measurements of the Wayneamo compound

Postby RLC-GTT on Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:39 am

In 1959, it wasn't an issue. People would never notice things like we are zeroing in on today, like drifting adobe bricks, fluttering cannon wheels, disappearing Cantina Tennesseans, etc. A movie then was created for viewing only in theaters -- and by most normal people, only once. :lol: We buffs now have the advantage of DVD players with freeze-frame and slow-motion functions. Knowing this, Hollywood seems to have tightened their technique. Just try to find continuity errors or dumb moves or props in THE ALAMO (2004). There are a few, but NOTHING worth writing home about -- or posting on a forum. The Hollywood of the 50's and 60's view that "Nobody will notice" has certainly turned around. Now -- mostly -- nobody DOES notice.
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