New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

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New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby martin vasquez on Mon May 03, 2010 2:47 am

I do not know if anyone has visited Chapultepec castle in Mexico city recently but I just visited online the Museo Nacional de Historia located inside the castle and to my surprise they now have a virtual tour of the museum where I did see the New Orleans Greys flag displayed prominently in a glass case. Below you will find a link and once you let the page load up scroll down the left side and click on La Joven Nacion V. This room is where you will find the Greys flag sitting above a Cuatla Dragoons cavalry flag. Not sure how bad the flag was, but appears to be in decent shape, interested in others opinion?
A couple of other noteworthy things I saw in the museum was a Santa Anna wooden leg with boot(I beleive there are two in the US if I am not mistaken).
The Battle of Tampico painting also seems to be on a wall in the museum, it was suppose to be lost along with the Greys flag?
Very beautiful place for a museum, I cant wait to visit! Hope you all enjoy it as much as I did.
http://paseos.cultura-inah.gob.mx/index ... &Itemid=41
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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby NefariousNed on Mon May 03, 2010 5:33 am

Such a trip to feel as though you are actually inside the Chapultepec museum. I've seen photos of the display case that houses the
New Orleans Greys flag, so I knew it was coming up when I spotted the open doors. It's kind of exciting, Martin. Thanks.
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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby RLC-GTT on Mon May 03, 2010 7:36 pm

Boy, would I love to go there someday.
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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby NefariousNed on Mon May 03, 2010 9:32 pm

Here's some screen captures from the virtual tour of Chapultepec Castle:

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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby NefariousNed on Mon May 03, 2010 9:32 pm

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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby NefariousNed on Mon May 03, 2010 9:33 pm

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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby NefariousNed on Mon May 03, 2010 9:34 pm

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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby NefariousNed on Mon May 03, 2010 9:35 pm

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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby NefariousNed on Mon May 03, 2010 9:35 pm

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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby NefariousNed on Mon May 03, 2010 9:36 pm

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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby NefariousNed on Tue May 04, 2010 2:50 am

For the beginning of the screen captures of Chapultepec Castle, go back a page.

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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby Seguin on Tue May 04, 2010 5:57 am

Thanks for posting those screen captures, Ned! - That´s some museum! I think I could easily spend a week there.
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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby NefariousNed on Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:15 am

Dale Kohler (valerojoe) has provided a copy of a bill in the Texas Legistature regarding a proposal to get the New Orleans Greys
flag returned to Texas.
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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby marklemon on Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:41 pm

Hi Martin,
As recently as the 1930's, the flag was in very good condition, and virtually intact. However, over next 30-odd years, it was allowed to deteriorate to a shameful degree, until the late 1950's or early 60's, when Walter Lord (as I recall) reported it to be crumbling to dust in brown wrapping paper.
What has happened since then, was that the hundreds of pieces of this flag were collected and placed on a powder blue colored webbed backing, which gives the appearance of the flag being intact. This is what we see now. In fact, if one compares the intact flag to the "restored" flag of today, many many differences in letter placement can be seen. It's a shame, really, what was allowed to happen to this priceless artifact.
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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby Cole_blooded on Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:39 am

Parable of the Alamo flag and Balangiga bells

By Scott Stroud / jstroud@express-news.net
March 25, 2011


If the latest attempt to recover the only flag known to have flown at the Alamo in 1836 doesn't remind you of the Bells of Balangiga, maybe it should.

The bells hung at a church in the Philippines until 1901. That's when they were seized by U.S. troops following an especially bloody exchange after the Philippines became an American territory.

The Philippine government and the Catholic Diocese of Borongan want them back. As with the flag that once flew over the Alamo, they've been asking for quite some time.

Just like the New Orleans Greys flag, which Gen. Antonio López de Santa Anna seized and sent back to Mexico after his troops stormed the Alamo, the bells were claimed by the U.S. as war booty.

The Alamo flag is on display in the Museo Nacional de Historia, at Chapultepec Castle in Mexico City. Two of the bells hang at Warren AFB in Cheyenne, Wyo., while the third, according to published reports, stays with the military regiment that captured it. That would be the 9th Infantry Mechanized Regiment of the 2nd Infantry Division, now stationed in Korea.

Lt. Brooke Brzozowske of the Warren AFB public affairs office said it receives at least one inquiry a year about the bells, but she said their return would require congressional approval.

“It seems every year that Congress has said, ‘Nope, we're not giving them back,'” she said.

Texas Rep. John Zerwas, R-Richmond, who revived the Alamo flag fight by sponsoring new legislation directing Gov. Rick Perry's office to negotiate the purchase or lease of the Alamo flag from Mexico, hadn't heard of the Bells of Balangiga.

He wasn't worked up about the contradictory positions, though he chuckled when I mentioned them. He just thinks passions have cooled enough on the Alamo that something can be done about the flag.

Bruce Winders, the Alamo historian and curator, hadn't heard of the bells, either, but didn't care to take up either fight.

“If everybody starts demanding their lost war trophies, where does it end?” he said. “If they would like to give it back, that's one thing. But we're not saying they're not nice people if they don't give it back.”

That's the kind of reasonable stance that has no place in our current political discourse — which brings me to what makes this fascinating. It's nothing if not an allegory for modern American politics.

Ours is an era in which one president claims broad authority to make war, prompting howls from the other side that he's defying the Constitution. Then an election comes along, the tribes switch roles, and the same thing happens in reverse, more or less.

Other examples of shape-shifting abound — on trade, war, the right of the Senate to hold up nominations or do anything without 60 votes, on runaway government spending. What you say at any given time depends less on what you think than which club you're in.

I'm not trying to defend either side here, at least not right now. Both shamelessly assume we'll forget the last go-round. But it all boils down to which group you're rooting for in the first place — which brings us right back to the flag and the bells.

So we Americans tend to think the Alamo flag should be returned to its rightful owner because it was taken from us. And the bells should stay right where they are because American soldiers earned them with their blood.

Incompatible truths, maybe, but still the kind of thing we hold to be self-evident.

Which says more about our ability to rationalize than our actual powers of reasoning.

jstroud@express-news.net


Read more: http://www.mysanantonio.com/default/art ... z1HrUtXGsr
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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby RLC-GTT on Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:41 am

Ha! I LOVE it!
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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby NefariousNed on Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:26 pm

Chapultepec Castle, where the New Orleans Greys Flag is housed.
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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby NefariousNed on Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:27 pm

Just through one of those portals there. A fitting place for the flag to be housed, I think.
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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby NefariousNed on Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:57 pm

marklemon wrote:...if one compares the intact flag to the "restored" flag of today, many many differences in letter
placement can be seen. It's a shame, really, what was allowed to happen to this priceless artifact.
Mark


Mark is right. Look at the differences in the letter placement---especially in the word Volunteer---
in the flag as it looks today, top, and and old photo of it, bottom.
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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby Seguin on Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:34 am

There´s not much left of it. :(
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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby K Hale on Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:52 am

Nefarious wrote:
marklemon wrote:...if one compares the intact flag to the "restored" flag of today, many many differences in letter
placement can be seen. It's a shame, really, what was allowed to happen to this priceless artifact.
Mark


Mark is right. Look at the differences in the letter placement---especially in the word Volunteer---
in the flag as it looks today, top, and and old photo of it, bottom.

Sad. I had a feeling it was not legit. Who's to say the letters are even the real thing?
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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby NefariousNed on Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:54 pm

Seguin wrote:There´s not much left of it. :(

Notice how even the hyphen is missing between "New" and "Orleans"?
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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby Seguin on Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:36 am

NefariousNed wrote:
Seguin wrote:There´s not much left of it. :(

Notice how even the hyphen is missing between "New" and "Orleans"?


I never noticed it before you mentioned it.
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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby cc nolen on Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:01 pm

Our own "Buckshot" has been to see the flag and maybe can add some info on this subject....Are ya back from Panama James? Help us out if you can give input.
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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby NefariousNed on Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:18 pm

cc nolen wrote:Our own "Buckshot" has been to see the flag and maybe can add some info on this subject....Are ya back from Panama James? Help us out if you can give input.
Chris...


The photo of the Grey's flag as it appears 'now' was taken by Socorro Dilisio of the California Contingent
of Alamo buffs about ten years ago when she was visiting Mexico City. After she took the picture, she
was really chewed out by the Chapultepec museum guard, as photos were a big no-no.

A few years back, Lee Spencer White got permission from the curator at the Chapultepec museum to both
see and then photograph the flag. The flag was no longer on display in the case seen in the above photos
having been archived. Some time after that, Lee got an exact copy of the flag in its current condition made
by the staff of Chapultepec to be presented to the Alamo. Where the replica is now, I've no idea. Anyone?
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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby Seguin on Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:40 am

A few years back, Lee Spencer White got permission from the curator at the Chapultepec museum to both
see and then photograph the flag. The flag was no longer on display in the case seen in the above photos
having been archived. Some time after that, Lee got an exact copy of the flag in its current condition made
by the staff of Chapultepec to be presented to the Alamo. Where the replica is now, I've no idea. Anyone?


Maybe somebody should ask Lee what happened to the copy of the flag and if it has been presented to the Alamo yet.
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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby Buckshot on Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:01 pm

cc nolen wrote:Our own "Buckshot" has been to see the flag and maybe can add some info on this subject....Are ya back from Panama James? Help us out if you can give input.
Chris...

Hi Chris, I am still in Panama, but have read the notes here about the New Orleans Greys flag. I first saw it in person in the 1990's while working at the US embassy in Mexico City, and returned to view it many times. Ned is correct about the security on the flag. An armed guard usually stands only a few feet away and no private person is allowed to photograph the flag. I watched on one occasion while a person had their camera film confiscated (they got the camera back), and another person was escorted from the room. I know of only one occasion when the flag was covertly photographed by a private individual. This was done at the request of a prominent US politician and was accomplished by the creation of a simple diversion/minor disturbance in the adjoining room. Some people wanted a photo of the display to compare to a known photo of the original.
That photographer was able to exit the museum with the photo intact.

Mark L is correct in noting that it appears that remnants of the flag may have been pieced together on the blue background along with other parts, original or otherwise. It is also correct that there are discrepancies in the lettering and other anomalies associated with the original as opposed as to what is inside the glass.
So what IS on display at Chapultepec : a badly damaged, degraded original, OR an artificially aged replica, OR pieces of both.
Over the years, numerous people have attempted to obtain a loan and/or repatriation of the flag to Texas:
Actor John Gavin when he was US Ambassador to Mexico in 1962...Governor John Connally, 1960's... Bush 43 when he was Governor... Bush 43 when he was POTUS..Texas state Senator Carlos Truan, 1994...The DRT, many times.... former Governor Rick Perry while in office, and a US "Congressional Inquiry Committee", who knows when or cares? They never accomplish anything.
There was another person who had a great interest in obtaining the flag and actually worked at the embassy in Mexico City; his name is Alan Smiley and he had a well-organized plan to do it through diplomatic channels. He had a personal interest in the matter. He is allegedly the G-G-G-G nephew of Daniel Cloud.
But he wasn't the person who took the photo.
Weather is nice down here in the Darien jungle of Panama, Chris, except for those damned Fer-De-lance snakes....I hate snakes...be back in Louisiana in a few days..
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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby K Hale on Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:45 am

Love the covert photo story.
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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby RLC-GTT on Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:06 am

NefariousNed wrote:
marklemon wrote:...if one compares the intact flag to the "restored" flag of today, many many differences in letter
placement can be seen. It's a shame, really, what was allowed to happen to this priceless artifact.
Mark


Mark is right. Look at the differences in the letter placement---especially in the word Volunteer---
in the flag as it looks today, top, and and old photo of it, bottom.


Wow, guys! Really! This alone might be the reason they are so adamant about no photographs. They are embarrassed over the failure to maintain it properly.
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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby K Hale on Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:25 am

Fake as a $3 bill.
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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby Buckshot on Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:43 am

K Hale wrote:Fake as a $3 bill.


I am afraid so, Kristi. What would be needed to authenticate the part(s) of the flag that are original, if any, would be a forensic expert who specializes in types of of weaving, and silk common to different periods of history who could evaluate the type of silk used to make the flag and the type of "weaving" involved for that time period.
These types of experts are out there, but I doubt the government of Mexico would ever permit a forensic examination of the flag for exactly that reason. Another Alamo mystery.
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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby K Hale on Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:52 am

And to think Texas has offered to trade actual artifacts for this.
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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby marklemon on Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:58 am

From a close study of the photographs, old and new, I can say for sure that the "F" in "First" has been replaced...it is entirely different. The other letters look the same, but after the flag crumbled into hundreds of pieces, the letters have been haphazardly put back on with little regard for the exact, original placement. As I observed earlier...there is no "New Orleans Greys" flag...but rather, New Orleans Greys fragments...hundreds of them, which are now placed on a light blue backing cloth.
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Re: New Orleans Greys Flag/Virtual Tour of Chapultepec Castle

Postby RLC-GTT on Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:08 am

Hard to imagine that any museum entity would allow this to happen.
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