Weapons used at the Alamo

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Re: Weapons used at the Alamo

Postby Cole_blooded on Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:14 am

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More images mid day Saturday and the letter!
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Re: Weapons used at the Alamo

Postby mark33 on Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:22 pm

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Do you think they could post a photo of their rifle in the same position as in this image above? I need to draw the bottom of the barrel but can't make out the detail. The rifle in the photo above looks like it has (3) three barrels. I'm not sure I'm seeing this correctly, and I don't know what those are. Any (close up) shots of the long barrel would also be very useful for my artwork. Thank you very much !!!

My next question: Do you think that "James Bowie" used a knife like the one that was posted in this thread? I kind of like the Bowie knife in the 2004 movie, with the "S" shaped guard and a more fancy looking handle. But I understand that's just Hollywood's image. Do you think his knife was probably very plain looking, like the one posted by Cole_blooded?
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Re: Weapons used at the Alamo

Postby Fred on Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:03 pm

Mark, the rifle in the hands of Billy bob shows the barrel, the stock and the ramrod viewed from the right side. There's only one barrel. The knife in the 2004 movie is a replica of the famous Musso Bowie knife owned by Joe Musso. It isn't just a hollywood version but is an actual fighting knife from that era. It's purpose was entirely as a tool to use against men in a fight. complete with the softer brass backing to the blade to catch the edge of the opponents knife so that it wouldn't slip down the blade and cut off the thumb of the man holding it. In combative knife fighting,this knife was designed to be held with the main cutting edge up to allow the use of the brass backing to parry the blows of the other man. The short, upper top edge of the blade was also sharp and was meant to cut at the opponents hand, while looking for an opportunity to thrust the blade into the opponents body, then with feet braced, ripping up and out with the main edge and disembowelling the man. The other knife was meant to be used as a multiple tool for every day use as well as for a possible weapon if need be and a sheath was made for it to be carried at the ready. Oh, yea, the bottom of the rifle held by Mr. Thorton will look just like the right side of the rifle in the close up picture above. ;)
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Re: Weapons used at the Alamo

Postby mark33 on Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:17 pm

Thanks for that info, Fred. Lets make sure I have this right. The wood stock is on the bottom middle, and goes all the way up until it meets a gold colored tip? Then the barrel is the gray area to the left? Then the ramrod is to the right? Wow, don't I look stupid....Don't answer that. :roll:
Last edited by mark33 on Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Weapons used at the Alamo

Postby NefariousNed on Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:19 pm

Thanks for the description, Fred. Below are the Bart Moore Bowie knife, a blade that the Moore family says was given to an ancestor of theirs by an ex-Mexican soldier and the IRON MISTRESS film knife, designed for the film of the same name and used in THE LAST COMMAND, THE ADVENTURES OF JIM BOWIE TV series and THE ALAMO (1960). The Musso Bowie, shown at the bottom of the photo, has been scientifically dated back to the year 1830.

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Joseph Musso talks about Bowie Knives seen in THE ALAMO (2004) From thealamofiolm site, October 28, 2004

MESSAGE FROM JOE MUSSO:

As you know, I was contacted several times from the Alamo 2004 film company
regarding bowie knives and the Mexican Army, first by Thel Reed when Ron Howard
was helming it and then by Don Miloyevich when John Lee Hancock took over.
Don eventually commissioned Tony Swatton of the Sword and Stone in Burbank CA
to make Jim Bowie and Davy Crockett's knife used in the film based on knives
in my collection. Bowie's knife as used by Jason Patric was based on the
original brass-backed knife, termed the Musso Bowie by others. The Crockett knife
that Billy Bob Thorton used was based on two other originals in my collection
The blade is from one previously owned by the American officer, Elisha Kent
Kane, and was made by the Philadelphia cutler, Henry Schively, who also made a
knife that Jim Bowie's brother, Rezin, presented to Jesse Perkins in 1831.
Kane's knife is in the same blade shape as Rezin's, except that it's 12" long,
compared to Rezin's 10 1/4" long blade. During the Mexican War, Kane captured
and later befriended the Mexican General Antonio Gaona, whose 1st Infantry
brigade and de La Pena stormed the north wall at the Alamo. Kane later went on
two arctic expeditions in search of the British explorer, Sir John Franklin,
and had the handle replaced with a reindeer antler found at the gravesite of
Frankilin's crew. He then presented it to the first president of the American
Geographic Society, Henry Grinnell, for financing the Expeditions. Since we
know that Crockett received a knife from the Whig Party in Philadelphia in 1834,
it's quite logical that this knife was made by the Phiadelphia cutler
Schively. Rather than go with a handle like Schively made for Rezin, however, John
Lee preferred to match the half-horse, half-alligator handle on another knife
from my collection that was also on display at the Texas State History Museum
Crockett Exhibition in Austin. Even though this handle design was not
incorporated on the bowie knife until 9 years after the Alamo fell, John Lee
obviously felt that it befitted Crockett's brag that he was "half-horse,
half-alligator and a little touched with snapping turtle."

Tony Swatton, also made versions of the Musso Bowie, which has a 13 3/4" long
blade, for the now defunct Texas Adventure Theater. His website is
http://www.swordandstone.com/knifes/alamobowie.html
Other custom knifemakers who specialize
in exact replicas include Joseph Kesslar in Almo, Ky, phone: 270-753-7919, and
Gil Hibben in La Grange, KY, phone: 502-222-1397. This style is also offered
in slightly smaller and cheaper versions by Atlanta Cutlery of Conyers, GA,
phone; 800-883-0300, as "Primitive Bowie" with a 13" long blade for $89.95 and
Dixie Gun Works of Union City, TN, phone: 800-238-6785, as "Alamo Bowie" with a
12 1/2" long blade for 99.95.

Since you can't copyright historic designs, anyone can make up versions of
these historic knives without anyone's permission. Hence, contrary to the
belief of some, I get absolutely no royalties from any of these makers or firms.
So those interested, can choose what they like depending on their interest for
accuracy and finances.

On a sad note, Fred Landesman, whose book, "John Wayne Filmography," just
came out and helped me on The Alamo Journal-Waynamo boxoffice article, died
suddenly on October 22 of a sudden heart attack. He was 54.
The "OUTSIDE THE ALAMO, Songs of Ned Huthmacher Performed by John Beland" CD Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/OutsideTheAlamo/
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Re: Weapons used at the Alamo

Postby NefariousNed on Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:28 pm

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Here is Joseph Musso, serving up some snacks with his big 'Cheese Cutter'.
The "OUTSIDE THE ALAMO, Songs of Ned Huthmacher Performed by John Beland" CD Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/OutsideTheAlamo/
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Re: Weapons used at the Alamo

Postby mark33 on Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:52 pm

I'm sorry in advance for being so uneducated about this subject, but does anyone have an opinion as to what happened to Bowie's original knife? Or is it the "Cheese Cutter"?
Last edited by mark33 on Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Weapons used at the Alamo

Postby Seguin on Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:59 pm

I think the Musso Bowie is the best looking Bowie knife ever, and it´s from the 1830s. That´s the one I would choose if I ever made a drawing or a painting where a Bowie knife should be part of the art...
Recuerden El Alamo!
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Re: Weapons used at the Alamo

Postby Fred on Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:17 pm

mark33 wrote:I'm sorry in advance for being so uneducated about this subject, but does anyone have an opinion as to what happened to Bowie's original knife?

A Mexican got it, that's for sure! Many think that the knife Joe Musso obtained (The Musso Bowie)is the original knife Jim Bowie used while at the Alamo. Spirited away by a Mexican after the fight, and ended up somewhere in the Southwest over a century later. Everything that was taken away by the Mexican soldiers and civilians after the fall of the Alamo went somewhere. It's recorded that the rifles and pistols of the rebels (Alamo defenders) were ordered to be given to the troops. These were probably actually auctioned off for the most part with the other items to those who had the money to buy them. Maybe some were hidden away in wagons or such before the auction. Everything that the defenders had, including their clothing was taken away by someone.
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Re: Weapons used at the Alamo

Postby Fred on Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:23 pm

mark33 wrote:Thanks for that info, Fred. Lets make sure I have this right. The wood stock is on the bottom middle, and goes all the way up until it meets a gold colored tip? Then the barrel is the gray area to the left? Then the ramrod is to the right? Wow, don't I look stupid....Don't answer that. :roll:

No you certainly do NOT look stupid. We're all here to learn and share. Nobody here is an expert at everything. Hey, ya know what an Expert is? An ex is a has been and a Spert is a drip under pressure! :lol:
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